Dysbiosis, Methane, Diverticulosis and Constipation

mle_ii · Post by **mle_ii** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:45 pm

Boy the more I find out about bacteria in the body the more I wonder how much disease it's actually responsible for when out of balance.

Tex, thought this would be of greatest interest to us given that we suffer from similar abdominal pain, a type of incomplete evacuation/constipation, and diverticulosis.

I posted this bit in another thread here:

I found something recently related to Flagyl and gas, specfically methane producing bacteria. What was also interesting is that this methane producing bacteria can cause constipation as well. Neomycin was helpful for folks with constipation form of IBS, this form of IBS is noted in folks who produce more methane than normal as methane is found to slow down the digestive tract.

Here are a few studies about this subject:
Incidence of methanogenic bacteria in a sigmoidoscopy population: an association of methanogenic bacteria and diverticulosis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum

Neomycin improves constipation-predominant irritable bowel syndrome in a fashion that is dependent on the presence of methane gas: subanalysis of a double-blind randomized controlled study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum

Methane, a gas produced by enteric bacteria, slows intestinal transit and augments small intestinal contractile activity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum

IBS subjects with methane on lactulose breath test have lower postprandial serotonin levels than subjects with hydrogen.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum

Methane production during lactulose breath test is associated with gastrointestinal disease presentation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum

I also wonder if this might be part of the reason some of us have MC but aren't as symptomatic. Meaning that I have enough of this methane producing bacteria that it actually slows down my GI to make up for the increase in speed that MC normally presents.

Mike

mle_ii · Post by **mle_ii** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:47 pm

Oh, and perhaps why Flagyl might worsen the situation as well for some folks. What a crazy mess going on in there eh?

mle_ii · Post by **mle_ii** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:02 pm

Wow, and here's another:

Relations between transit time, fermentation products, and hydrogen consuming flora in healthy humans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum

bobh · Post by **bobh** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:17 pm

mle_ii wrote:Oh, and perhaps why Flagyl might worsen the situation as well for some folks.

I felt extremely toxic on Flagyl when I tried it in 1993. Had explosive "D" for years at that time, did the O&P tests, they are always going to find "something". Flagyl did nothing for me, and I felt like I was eating rat poison, just waiting for the 10 days to be over.

The colonoscopy at that time saw the same mild inflammation that the 2004 colonoscopy showed, but they didn't know to look for MC. I am very thankful that I got diagnosed (eventually) and found this group, so I could get better educated on the options.

mle_ii · Post by **mle_ii** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:17 pm

Frome one of the studies:

Some conditions are thought to increase methane production within
the colon, such as excessive intracolonic anaerobiosis and
elevated intracolonic pH. Certain diseases, such as colonic
carcinoma, cystic fibrosis, and diverticulosis, have been
associated with enhanced methane production.

mle_ii · Post by **mle_ii** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:43 pm

Here's another thought. I read through quite a few studies and in some instances they determine them to be genetic, though without any genetic findings per se, only because parents had it or siblings or some other familial finding. Problem is that these bacteria and thus subsequent dysbiosis could be the cause but in the end look like a genetic factor.

My bet is that if some studies would look at the rates of disease in families that they would find a more significant number of those effected to be from mothers with dysbiosis. So say for example if your grandmother has dysbiosis, the odds of you getting dysbiosis go up if the grandmother is your mother's mom but should be lower if your grandmother is your father's mom. Though in the case of the methane producing bacteria I can see how you would get it from your father, the majority of the bifidobacteria and perhaps lactobacteria should come from your mother. Given that these are mainly brought about by being born and by breast feeding.

Mike

Post by **tex** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:44 pm

Hmmmmmmmm. Interesting.

Unfortunately, methane gas is odorless, and colorless, (isn't it, or am I confused here), so I never noticed, and my breath was never tested for it.

Tex

mle_ii · Post by **mle_ii** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:03 pm

tex wrote:Hmmmmmmmm. Interesting.

Unfortunately, methane gas is odorless, and colorless, (isn't it, or am I confused here), so I never noticed, and my breath was never tested for it.

Tex

Yep, it'd require a breath test as far as I've read thus far.

artteacher · Post by **artteacher** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:23 pm

Regardless of a breath test, if you improved on Neomycin, you could reliably assume you had methane producing bacteria?

Marsha

mle_ii · Post by **mle_ii** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:04 pm

Probably not, as I think that Neomycin effects other bacteria as well.

I'm doing some more research on the methane producing bacteria and there are a couple of good findings thus far. One is that garlic oil appears to reduce the amount of this type of bacteria but doesn't effect the other bacterias as much.

Another one that is just as interesting is that there are a couple of statins (cholesterol reducing meds) that appear to inhibit methane producing bacteria. The effect is on the bacteria itself, these statins block production of isoprenoid units by blocking the bacterias use of HMG-SCoA reductase. This reductase is the same one used by our bodies to produce cholesterol. Though I'm hesitent to recommend statins for this at least it's better in some ways than an antibiotic since most seem to effect the good bacteria as well, whereas the statins do not.

mle_ii · Post by **mle_ii** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:18 pm

Wow, it appears that the reason garlic works is the same reason why statins work by inhibiting HMG-SCoA reductase.

Plant extracts affect in vitro rumen microbial fermentation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum

What's funny is that I bought a garlic supplement a couple of weeks ago, but haven't started using it yet. Guess I'd better give it a try as well. Perhaps it'll help with my gas.

Mike

mle_ii · Post by **mle_ii** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:29 pm

Ok, it appears I might be off on the Neomycin. This and another antibiotic, metronidazole, appear to have little or no effect on the good bacteria.

Antibiotic susceptibility of Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium species from the human gastrointestinal tract.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum

Isolation and antimicrobial susceptibility testing of fecal strains of the archaeon Methanobrevibacter smithii.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum

mle_ii · Post by **mle_ii** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:32 pm

Wait a minute it appears that metronidazole is also called Flagyl. I thought this was problematic for folks here. Strange. Guess I gotta look some more.

cludwig · Post by **cludwig** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:53 pm

I was on Flagyl...Dec2005...made me horribly ill.

Love, Cristi

mle_ii · Post by **mle_ii** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:59 pm

I mentioned this elsewhere, but I really want this info in this thread.

mle_ii wrote: Oh, and it appears that I'm not too far off, take a look at these studies:
Morphometric study of colonic biopsies: a new method of estimating inflammatory diseases.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum
Collagenous colitis associated with chronic constipation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum
Microscopic colitis: a retrospective study of clinical presentation in 53 patients.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum
Collagenous colitis: constipation or diarrhoea?
http://gut.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/52/8/1230
[Microscopic colitis]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum

Wow!!!! 1 reported that 56% of those with MC had constipation, another 50%, 50% again, 43%, and 25% (or 50% of atypical LC). Hmmm...

So many thoughts on this topic. For example, all this again points towards dysbiosis and that MC is a symptom not the problem, we see the same varations, I can see why everything that folks have tried had worked, or worked short term or not worked at all.

And finally how about this, given that I bet folks with constipation would rarely have a colonoscopy (anyone else think this) and that folks who have diarrhea would I assume be more likely to get one. It makes me wonder if the ratio is scewed even more towards it being more constipation than diarrhea.

Ok, this is getting very interesting.

Mike