Hi All,
Some of you are probably aware that I've been trying to prove or disprove that I am intolerant to casein for a couple of years now. I can eat it now and then, without any problems, and then all of a sudden, it will give me bigtime D. I've puzzled over this, and fiddled with it, and run trials, until I think I've finally figured it out.
It seems to affect me sort of the same way that oats does. I can eat it now and then, without any problems, but if I eat it virtually every day, (even in small amounts), it will eventually sock it to me. I've gone through several repetitions of this now, so I'm pretty sure that this is the case.
Eating it once, or maybe even twice, per week, doesn't seem to cause any noticeable symptoms, but if I, for example, eat a Hershey bar, or Snickers bar once a day for a few days, (which contains milk chocolate, of course), and then eat a bowl of ice cream the next day, 6 or 7 hours after eating the ice cream, it will clean me out, just like clockwork. As long as I don't eat anything with any casein in it for a few weeks, I can eat a big bowl of ice cream without any reaction, (other than maybe getting fat. LOL).
Apparently, I have to build up a certain level of antibodies, before it affects me, and once I cross the critical threshold, I'm in trouble. Soooooooooo, no more dairy for me. I'm glad I finally figured it out.
I wonder how many others here, might be similarly affected - not just by casein, but maybe even other proteins that are known to be suspect, (including gluten). It's tough to pin down an intolerance, when you can sometimes eat it without any adverse consequences.
Tex
I Think I've Finally Figured Out My Dairy Intolerance
Moderators: Rosie, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
I Think I've Finally Figured Out My Dairy Intolerance
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Hi Tex,
It's nice to figure out our intolerences...in regards to diary I also can treat myself to a spot of cream in my morning tea once or twice a week without problems but no more than that. The difference between us however is that I don't eat candy bars, ice creams or any other products containing diary and sugars any longer- that might be pushing you over the edge a little bit.
Glad you figured out what's up with your diary issues.
Have you read this on Eades blog?
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/2006/12/19/421/
Like you, wonder about folks here that are able to eat gluten without problems. Or those that have problems with it but are taking medications which may be just masking the problems short term.
Love,
Joanna
It's nice to figure out our intolerences...in regards to diary I also can treat myself to a spot of cream in my morning tea once or twice a week without problems but no more than that. The difference between us however is that I don't eat candy bars, ice creams or any other products containing diary and sugars any longer- that might be pushing you over the edge a little bit.
Glad you figured out what's up with your diary issues.
Have you read this on Eades blog?
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/2006/12/19/421/
Like you, wonder about folks here that are able to eat gluten without problems. Or those that have problems with it but are taking medications which may be just masking the problems short term.
Love,
Joanna
THE GLUTEN FILES
http://jccglutenfree.googlepages.com/
http://jccglutenfree.googlepages.com/
I'm curious, Tex. I'm sure you're familiar with the Rotary Diversified Diet which allows you to eat one food intolerance every four days, assuming that you don't have a severe reaction to the food.Soooooooooo, no more dairy for me. I'm glad I finally figured it out.
I'm quoting from "The Allergy Self-Help Book" by Marjorie Hurt Jones, RN.
Do you feel that it's necessary to completely give up a food even if you tolerate it after occasional consumption?For folks with food sensitivities, avoiding allergy-producing foods for a while and then spacing consumption of those foods by four or more days may allow your body to once again tolerate allergenic foods. Further, rotating all the foods you eat helps prevent new allergies from developing.
You never know what you can do until you have to do it.
Hi Joanna,
Thanks for the link. That's an excellent blog. I hadn't seen Dr. Cordain's theory about betacellulin yet, so I'm glad you pointed that out. The bottom line, (as far as MCers are concerned), seems to be that dairy products may keep our gut from healing, (due to the betacellin, separate and apart from the hazards of casein intolerance). That would imply that it would be a very good idea for anyone in the healing stage of recovering from the GI damage caused by MC, (or gluten sensitivity), to avoid all dairy products until their gut is healed, whether they are casein intolerant or not.
You've made an interesting comment about the sugar in candy bars, and a possible connection with "enhanced" casein intolerance, (if I am understanding you correctly). IOW, (if I'm not misinterpreting what you are saying), the additional, (non-lactose), sugars in the candy bars, (and ice cream), helped to trigger my reactions to dairy products. Hmmmmmmmmmm. Very interesting. You may be on to something there. Prior to rather recently, I only occasionally ate a candy bar, and/or ice cream. The reactions started when I upped the frequency, (dosage rate).
Until recently, the four-day-interval diet theory, (that Gloria referred to), was pretty much what I was following, (IOW, don't eat a suspect food more often than once every three or four days). I suspect that may be why you can eat cream in your tea, once or twice a week, but a higher frequency can cause problems. Anyway, once I stepped up the frequency, I ran into trouble.
I wish some medical research facility would investigate the concept of the risk, (or lack thereof), of suppressing intolerance symptoms by the use of meds, so that we would have a definitive answer to that issue. I don't think it will ever happen, though, since pharmaceutical companies almost always foot the bill for research of that type, and they aren't likely to want to initiate any research that might discredit the use of pharmaceuticals in the treatment of any disease.
Thanks for the insight.
Love,
Tex
Thanks for the link. That's an excellent blog. I hadn't seen Dr. Cordain's theory about betacellulin yet, so I'm glad you pointed that out. The bottom line, (as far as MCers are concerned), seems to be that dairy products may keep our gut from healing, (due to the betacellin, separate and apart from the hazards of casein intolerance). That would imply that it would be a very good idea for anyone in the healing stage of recovering from the GI damage caused by MC, (or gluten sensitivity), to avoid all dairy products until their gut is healed, whether they are casein intolerant or not.
You've made an interesting comment about the sugar in candy bars, and a possible connection with "enhanced" casein intolerance, (if I am understanding you correctly). IOW, (if I'm not misinterpreting what you are saying), the additional, (non-lactose), sugars in the candy bars, (and ice cream), helped to trigger my reactions to dairy products. Hmmmmmmmmmm. Very interesting. You may be on to something there. Prior to rather recently, I only occasionally ate a candy bar, and/or ice cream. The reactions started when I upped the frequency, (dosage rate).
Until recently, the four-day-interval diet theory, (that Gloria referred to), was pretty much what I was following, (IOW, don't eat a suspect food more often than once every three or four days). I suspect that may be why you can eat cream in your tea, once or twice a week, but a higher frequency can cause problems. Anyway, once I stepped up the frequency, I ran into trouble.
I wish some medical research facility would investigate the concept of the risk, (or lack thereof), of suppressing intolerance symptoms by the use of meds, so that we would have a definitive answer to that issue. I don't think it will ever happen, though, since pharmaceutical companies almost always foot the bill for research of that type, and they aren't likely to want to initiate any research that might discredit the use of pharmaceuticals in the treatment of any disease.
Thanks for the insight.
Love,
Tex
Hi Gloria,
Yes, I'm familiar with diet plan you mentioned. In fact, that concept was the reason why I set up my oat test for a dose frequency of twice a week. I dosed twice a week, (rather than every four days), for convenience, since it is so much easier to remember to do something on the same two days each week, (Tuesdays and Saturdays, in this case). I think that I've read where some sources suggest that three days is sufficient, so I figured I could get away with alternating frequencies of three and four days, respectively, but in hindsight, that "safe" interval may well depend on the individual, and his or her sensitivities.
Presumably, the spaced-out dose interval delayed the onset of symptoms, (for about six weeks), but when I started the test, quite frankly, I was expecting to be able to eat oats at that interval virtually indefinitely, without problems. I may have failed the test because I am a celiac, and so I was slowly accumulating villous damage, and it finally reached the trigger point. (I don't know that I am a celiac, but I have suspected it for about six years, now - I will never know, because there's no question that I'm gluten sensitive, and so I'm 100% faithful to the GF diet). Or, maybe I failed the test simply because four days is an absolute minimum for the rotation interval. At any rate, I don't think that the four-day interval would work for gluten. I believe that for celiacs, especially, the damage to the intestines would continue to accumulate, just at a slower pace. I don't know that for a fact, however. I wonder if anyone has ever tested that concept for gluten.
You've raised a very, very good question, and I'm not satisfied that I'm prepared to give a firm answer. (I apologize for being so wishy-washy today). LOL.
My thoughts are that if a food cannot be eaten more often than once every four days, then obviously the body is producing antibodies to that food, and when we limit the dosage rate so that the antibody level doesn't reach the trigger point for a reaction, that is a lot like "eating a little poison, but not eating enough to kill us". As bad as this sounds, though, remember that doctors routinely prescribe poisons such as warfarin, (rat poison), for example, in small doses, as a blood thinner, presumably even for long-term use.
On the other hand, why worry about a problem that doesn't exist - IOW, without significant symptoms, how bad can it be? For all I know, I may be producing small amounts of antibodies to various other proteins that I am not even aware of, because they never reach a level that will result in a noticeable reaction.
The bottom line is: We just don't know what the risks are, (if any risks actually exist). In the absence of verified research, we have to guess, and each of us has to make our own decisions in matters of this sort. I wish I had a better answer. I've decided to avoid all dairy products, in general. However, I'm not above grabbing an occasional candy bar, (the milk chocolate notwithstanding), in a moment of weakness, so long as it doesn't happen very often. LOL.
Tex
Yes, I'm familiar with diet plan you mentioned. In fact, that concept was the reason why I set up my oat test for a dose frequency of twice a week. I dosed twice a week, (rather than every four days), for convenience, since it is so much easier to remember to do something on the same two days each week, (Tuesdays and Saturdays, in this case). I think that I've read where some sources suggest that three days is sufficient, so I figured I could get away with alternating frequencies of three and four days, respectively, but in hindsight, that "safe" interval may well depend on the individual, and his or her sensitivities.
Presumably, the spaced-out dose interval delayed the onset of symptoms, (for about six weeks), but when I started the test, quite frankly, I was expecting to be able to eat oats at that interval virtually indefinitely, without problems. I may have failed the test because I am a celiac, and so I was slowly accumulating villous damage, and it finally reached the trigger point. (I don't know that I am a celiac, but I have suspected it for about six years, now - I will never know, because there's no question that I'm gluten sensitive, and so I'm 100% faithful to the GF diet). Or, maybe I failed the test simply because four days is an absolute minimum for the rotation interval. At any rate, I don't think that the four-day interval would work for gluten. I believe that for celiacs, especially, the damage to the intestines would continue to accumulate, just at a slower pace. I don't know that for a fact, however. I wonder if anyone has ever tested that concept for gluten.
You've raised a very, very good question, and I'm not satisfied that I'm prepared to give a firm answer. (I apologize for being so wishy-washy today). LOL.
My thoughts are that if a food cannot be eaten more often than once every four days, then obviously the body is producing antibodies to that food, and when we limit the dosage rate so that the antibody level doesn't reach the trigger point for a reaction, that is a lot like "eating a little poison, but not eating enough to kill us". As bad as this sounds, though, remember that doctors routinely prescribe poisons such as warfarin, (rat poison), for example, in small doses, as a blood thinner, presumably even for long-term use.
On the other hand, why worry about a problem that doesn't exist - IOW, without significant symptoms, how bad can it be? For all I know, I may be producing small amounts of antibodies to various other proteins that I am not even aware of, because they never reach a level that will result in a noticeable reaction.
The bottom line is: We just don't know what the risks are, (if any risks actually exist). In the absence of verified research, we have to guess, and each of us has to make our own decisions in matters of this sort. I wish I had a better answer. I've decided to avoid all dairy products, in general. However, I'm not above grabbing an occasional candy bar, (the milk chocolate notwithstanding), in a moment of weakness, so long as it doesn't happen very often. LOL.
Tex
I'm enjoying this discussion. Like others here, I find I can tolerate what I call my more "minor" intolerances if I eat them infrequently - like citrus, tomatoes, chocolate. However, like Tex, I wonder what the long-term impact is, since I probably make antibodies to these foods, albeit more slowly than with gluten and casein.
But then sometimes I wonder if we really know WHAT the heck is going on. When I was on Cipro for 6 weeks recently for a sinus infection, I had perfect BMs - and was able to eat my minor intolerances freely without any problem at all. (I didn't try gluten or casein - I have sworn these off forever, but everything else was fine.). I asked Dr. Fasano in an email how Cipro worked - I had wondered if it might work by helping to close those "gates" in the gut that allow foreign proteins in, thus provoking antibody production. He said that it worked by altering the microflora in the gut. So I wonder how altering the microflora allow me to eat certain intolerances? Does anyone know?
The more I learn about our disease, the more questions I have!!!!
Love,
Polly
But then sometimes I wonder if we really know WHAT the heck is going on. When I was on Cipro for 6 weeks recently for a sinus infection, I had perfect BMs - and was able to eat my minor intolerances freely without any problem at all. (I didn't try gluten or casein - I have sworn these off forever, but everything else was fine.). I asked Dr. Fasano in an email how Cipro worked - I had wondered if it might work by helping to close those "gates" in the gut that allow foreign proteins in, thus provoking antibody production. He said that it worked by altering the microflora in the gut. So I wonder how altering the microflora allow me to eat certain intolerances? Does anyone know?
The more I learn about our disease, the more questions I have!!!!
Love,
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
Polly,
Wow! That answer from Dr. Fasano does indeed raise some interesting questions. It amounts to saying that you, (we), have a chronic microflora "imbalance", and suggests that if you could optimally manipulate the respective populations, you could eat virtually anything you wanted, including gluten. (When I was given Cipro, on two occasions, it was before I was aware of any gluten issue, and though my BMs were too soft and gassy, D was not a problem as long as I was taking the Cipro, even though I was eating gluten). This is all very interesting, to say the least.
As to your question about how the concept actually works, I don't have the foggiest idea, but I'll bet if we all put our heads together, we'll come up with some interesting possibilities. I'm sure we'll have a problem, though, convincing Mike that a bacterial imbalance might have anything to do with it. NOT!
Thanks for posting that.
Love,
Tex
Wow! That answer from Dr. Fasano does indeed raise some interesting questions. It amounts to saying that you, (we), have a chronic microflora "imbalance", and suggests that if you could optimally manipulate the respective populations, you could eat virtually anything you wanted, including gluten. (When I was given Cipro, on two occasions, it was before I was aware of any gluten issue, and though my BMs were too soft and gassy, D was not a problem as long as I was taking the Cipro, even though I was eating gluten). This is all very interesting, to say the least.
You said a mouthful there. I'm sure that applies to all of us.Polly wrote:The more I learn about our disease, the more questions I have!!!!
As to your question about how the concept actually works, I don't have the foggiest idea, but I'll bet if we all put our heads together, we'll come up with some interesting possibilities. I'm sure we'll have a problem, though, convincing Mike that a bacterial imbalance might have anything to do with it. NOT!
Thanks for posting that.
Love,
Tex
Ha, this is exactly what I'm thinking is the cause of our gluten and other food issues. That the bacteria in the gut are fed that they produce things that better allow the food proteins and other components to cross barriers that they shouldn't, and when that happens we start to develop and intollerance to those and other foods. Gluten, dairy and other difficult to break down foods are better at feeding this bacteria and these seem to be the foods that most have issues with.
And this might be why it takes some time for you to get your intollerance to those foods, as the bacteria build up in numbers, the produce more toxins and then eventually once it gets to a certain level you get the intollerance. Perhaps those who react immediately have more bacteria/toxins already present and those who take longer or don't react have much less.
Thanks,
Mike
And this might be why it takes some time for you to get your intollerance to those foods, as the bacteria build up in numbers, the produce more toxins and then eventually once it gets to a certain level you get the intollerance. Perhaps those who react immediately have more bacteria/toxins already present and those who take longer or don't react have much less.
Thanks,
Mike
Mike,
I can't argue with your logic. In fact, I wonder if it's possible that the medical profession has been monitoring the wrong markers all along with many of these GI diseases. IOW, just because the body is producing antibodies to a given "agent", doesn't necessarily guarantee that the symptoms we have are directly caused by the antibody buildup. It might be possible that the symptoms are mostly due to a microbial issue, and the autoimmune reaction only plays a minor part in the development of symptoms. (I'm not saying that this is what actually happens, but I wonder if it might be a possibility).
Tex
I can't argue with your logic. In fact, I wonder if it's possible that the medical profession has been monitoring the wrong markers all along with many of these GI diseases. IOW, just because the body is producing antibodies to a given "agent", doesn't necessarily guarantee that the symptoms we have are directly caused by the antibody buildup. It might be possible that the symptoms are mostly due to a microbial issue, and the autoimmune reaction only plays a minor part in the development of symptoms. (I'm not saying that this is what actually happens, but I wonder if it might be a possibility).
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
This is exactly what I'm thinking and why I was unsure about IgG testing and what exactly it's telling us. If we have a protein that was pretty much in every meal (gluten) and you had bacterial overgrowth (or any kind of dysbiosis) that caused the proteins to pass into an area that it normally shouldn't be in then one would have antibodies, at least someone with a normal imune system.tex wrote:Mike,
I can't argue with your logic. In fact, I wonder if it's possible that the medical profession has been monitoring the wrong markers all along with many of these GI diseases. IOW, just because the body is producing antibodies to a given "agent", doesn't necessarily guarantee that the symptoms we have are directly caused by the antibody buildup. It might be possible that the symptoms are mostly due to a microbial issue, and the autoimmune reaction only plays a minor part in the development of symptoms. (I'm not saying that this is what actually happens, but I wonder if it might be a possibility).
Tex
And as Fasano has shown, gluten even on it's own can cause the tight junctions to open up in susceptable people which would allow the proteins to pass in as well. In fact, in a quick look at pubmed it appears that for some the body reacts to gliadin in the same way the body reacts to lipopolysaccharides. An enterotoxin to the body as part of bacteria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipopolysaccharide
These lipopolysaccharides are what make us feel like we have the flu when they are in large numbers in the GI tract, and I would guess even more so in SIBO.
Thanks,
Mike
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.
I'd love to see this discussion continue.
I'm another who has definite food no-no's. Milk is the big one. Other foods I can sneak ever so often, but not day after day. I can eat eggs maybe once a week or so, but if I were to eat eggs every day, by the third day I'd be in full blown "chained to the toilet for 24 hours" mode. The same with wheat, actually, although I don't cheat much with wheat.
I compare eating things I know I shouldn't to having someone slug me in the arm: it will create a bruise (big deal). Getting slugged on the same spot 3 days in a row REALLY hurts, and takes a lot longer to bounce back from.
If it's possible to find out which bacteria Cipro suppresses, then maybe it's possible to find out which good bacteria competes specifically with those bacteria.
Marsha
I'm another who has definite food no-no's. Milk is the big one. Other foods I can sneak ever so often, but not day after day. I can eat eggs maybe once a week or so, but if I were to eat eggs every day, by the third day I'd be in full blown "chained to the toilet for 24 hours" mode. The same with wheat, actually, although I don't cheat much with wheat.
I compare eating things I know I shouldn't to having someone slug me in the arm: it will create a bruise (big deal). Getting slugged on the same spot 3 days in a row REALLY hurts, and takes a lot longer to bounce back from.
If it's possible to find out which bacteria Cipro suppresses, then maybe it's possible to find out which good bacteria competes specifically with those bacteria.
Marsha