Polly - Regarding Your Double DQ1 Topic

[tex]

Hi Polly,

It's great to see that you found some time to post. I didn't want to "dilute" or side-track your Double DQ1 topic with this extracurricular drivel, so I posted it separately.

Your topic could yield some very interesting insight into intolerances, and I would love to see it expanded into as much detail as possible. There are a few minor hangups, though. First off, Gloria posted a day or so ago that she will be away for a while, with about ten days remaining, I believe, due to visiting family members. Celia, as you know, hasn't logged in since she left to join a monstery in France, (I believe), for a year. Her last post was two years and nineteen days ago. We haven't heard from Kimberley since she said that she would be moving, a couple of months ago. Double DQ1s seem to be a rather diverse group, who lead somewhat complex lives, but I suppose you could say that about MCers in general.

Anyway, in order to keep your topic from getting lost in the shuffle over time, I'm going to assign it a priority, so that it will stay at the top of the forum. That way, as these members return, they'll be able to see it.

Speaking of the paleo diet, I have always felt that the paleo diet should bring remission for virtually any digestive system issues based on food intolerances. Recently, however, we've had several members who seem to be unable to achieve remission on the paleo diet, but maybe there are other considerations in those cases.

For example, one of those members is Gloria, who finally achieved remission when she discovered that she is intolerant to green beans, and so she cut them out of her diet. Of course, technically, green beans are not an "official" paleo food. In fact, you once posted that you stopped eating green beans, because they are not a part of the paleo diet. Do you react negatively to green beans, or did you drop them from your diet simply because they're not a true paleo food.

I haven't tried any beef in years, so I really don't know if I would react now, but back when I was still healing, I discovered that I was intolerant to it. It didn't cause any D, but a few hours after eating it, I would have bloating and gas, and within roughly 8 hours of eating it, I would develop upper body aches and pains, (stiff neck, headache, pain between the shoulder blades, etc.), obvious symptoms of the leaky gut syndrome. The next day I would be OK again. I don't understand how/why a paleo food could do that. Maybe there was something in the meat, but it happened every time I tried it, on many occasions, (this was home cooking, not eating out). Of course, IMO, modern beef is not truly a paleo food, since modern beef animals are finished on grain, which was not a possibility in paleo times. All commercial meat is finished on grain these days, for that matter. That may be changing, however, considering the current high price of grains. At current price relationships, feeding grain is impractical, from an economic standpoint. Meat will either have to sell at much higher prices, or grain will have to go down in price, for conventional feeding practices to work on a sustainable basis.

I guess my question is, "do you think that it's possible to be intolerant to a paleo food? I have trouble wrapping my brain around that one. LOL.

Love,
Tex

[Polly]

Hi Tex,

Thanks for your response! I see that it may be a while before we can get some responses. Thanks for keeping the post alive. There may be others, too, who suffer multiple intolerances but have not been genetically tested, so anyone is welcome to respond.

Your final question is an excellent one. I think the answer is probably yes, for the following reasons:

1. We all have different genes, and that seems to be a major determinant of food differences.
2. I have heard that steak stays in the stomach for hours (7-8?) compared to other foods......since you already had a problem with foods putrefying in the gut, steak may have aggravated things.
3. You still had lots of gut damage at that time. Perhaps now that things have healed, you'd have a different experience.
4. I agree about how beef is raised. Some who have had trouble with beef can tolerate grass-finished (free-range beef) or bison or venison. Have you tried any of them?

I recall earlier discussions here about whether corn-fed animals would create a problem for people with corn intolerances, for example. What did we decide? My intuition tells me that animal muscle would not contain any traces of corn; however, I'm not sure how it might change in compostion compared to muscles from grass-fed animals......we know that the types of fats change. Perhaps the body's genes do not recognize the corn-fed muscle as readily/completely? Just speculating. As a farmer and corn expert, you can address this far better than I.

Love,

Polly

[JLH]

Brilliant, as Angy might say. I'm writing about beef being finished with grain.......

[tex]

Polly,

I've never tried any bison, but as far as I can tell, venison has never caused me any problems, nor has any other type of meat.

I remember those discussions, now that you mention them, but I don't recall that we reached any firm conclusions. I agree that it doesn't seem likely that muscle tissue could contain any traces of corn, but since both cereal chemistry and biological chemistry are involved, the processes are way too complex for this old country boy to comprehend.

I'm not sure how it might change in compostion compared to muscles from grass-fed animals......we know that the types of fats change. Perhaps the body's genes do not recognize the corn-fed muscle as readily/completely?

You may be hitting pretty close to the center of the target there. Thinking about that, the primary difference between grain-fed beef and grass-fed beef, lies in the "marbling" of fat in the muscle tissue. IOW, a certain pattern of fat is distributed somewhat uniformly throughout the muscle tissue in grain-fed beef, whereas in grass-fed animals, there's no fat within the muscles, and if any fat is present, it is found in a contiguous layer, outside the muscle groups. For example, deer, will usually go into winter with a thick layer of fat just under their hide, which serves both as insulation, and as a "food" storage mechanism, to see them through the hard times ahead. Their muscles do not exhibit any fat marbling, however.

Virtually all forms of digestive system issues, (including the IBDs, celiac sprue, etc.,), present with steatorrhea, due mostly to a fat malabsorption problem. (If you have to flush two or three times, you probably have steatorrhea.) The more fat ingested, the worse the steatorrhea. We can limit our fat intake with most meats, (just by not eating the obvious layers, or blobs of fat), but with grain-fed beef, even if we avoid all the obvious fat, we're still ingesting a lot of fat, due to the marbling.

Maybe that effect is significant enough to cause the symptoms that I noticed. I did have "world-class" problems with steatorrhea. It usually took three or four flushes to get rid of the last of the "floaters", even after several years on the diet. LOL.

Love,
Tex

[Lucy]

Hmmm,

This makes me wonder if I have marbling in my muscles from eating corn products so much? Don't think I'll resort to eating grass, however! Ha!

Interesting thread.

Yours, Luce

[Polly]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I would put research from "this old country boy" up against anyone's scientific research. You are too modest! We have seen some of your treatises on cereal chemistry, remember? (I had to look up every other word). Interesting about the fat marbling. I didn't know that.

Love,

Polly

[crranch]

Just one more observation....Rick and I have Irish Dexter Cattle ( very old breed, has not been "improved" like the more popular breeds like Angus and Hereford have) and they have a much more lean meat, like the Texas longhorns that we have butchered when we didn't have a Dexter to eat. Since both of these breeds produce meat that looks more like Bison or venison, and the fact that we raise our stock totally organic, is that why Rick doen't seem to have any trouble with it??? The same for our pork, it is very lean, free range, pasture fed, not grained within an inch of it's life...

Soooo, would more MC'er's do better to stear clear of "modern" breeds of beef and pork, and go old school??? Just a thought...

Hugs,
Carrie

[tex]

Carrie,

I'm not sure, but I think something such as beef intolerance is somewhat rare. I can recall only one or two other members mentioning it. I've never had any problem with pork of any type, (from wild, to fat domestic), and I eat it pretty much every day.

I never tried a Texas longhorn - I was always told that their meat was tough and stringy, but maybe that changed when the trail drives faded into history. LOL.

Hugs,
Tex

[JLH]

On Mother's Day, DH made a wonderful dinner of roast beef, red potatoes and Stouffer's Spinach Souffle. I got sick with D shortly after eating dinner. I did NOT over eat.

I've been wondering about the dumping syndrome that gastric bypass patients get. I haven't looked it up yet to see if others get it, too. The grain finished beef never ever crossed my so called mind and never would. Of course, it could have been something else.............

[tex]

Stouffer's Spinach Souffle contains cream of mushroom soup - doesn't it? Most cream of mushroom soup, (including canned products, such as Campbell's), contains wheat flour. They also contain casein, (in case you're allergic to dairy proteins).

Tex

[JLH]

The Stouffer's web site says: chopped whole leaf spinach combined with milk, eggs and other seasonings.

I do stay away from milk for the most part. I don't remember having any problems with the souffle' before this. Who knows?

[tex]

Here's the recipe for Stouffer's Spinach Souffle:

Stouffer's Spinach Souffle

2 eggs
1 (10 3/4 ounce) can cream of mushroom soup
1 small onion, sliced thin
1/8 teaspoon garlic powder
1/2 teaspoon salt
1 (10 ounce) package frozen spinach, thawed and
drained very well
Dash of nutmeg

Preheat oven to 350 degrees F.

Put eggs, soup, onion, garlic powder and salt into a blender and blend for 30 seconds Add spinach and nutmeg, and blend for 30 seconds. Pour into an ungreased souffl?dish or casserole and bake for 50 to 60 minutes.

Scroll down on the site below, to see the ingredient list for Campbelll's Cream of Mushroom Soup:

http://www.walgreens.com/store/product. ... id=prod365

Most MIs cannot use the vast majority of commercial canned soups. Almost all of them contain ingredients that are "toxic" to us. There are a couple of brands of soup and broth that are pretty much "allergen-free", and they're usually sold in asceptic packaging, in order to have a decent shelf life, without preservatives. The celiac discussion boards claim that Progresso Cream of Mushroom Soup is gluten free, and it may well be, because Progresso is owned by General Mills, but I couldn't find an ingredient list online. Most recipes for cream of mushroom soup, however, contain wheat flour.

Imagine Foods, and Pacific Natural Foods, (Pacific Foods of Oregon), are a couple of examples of companies that make some safe soups and broths.

Tex

[Matthew]

Hello all,

In addition to all the good ideas mentioned above about why the soufflé might be a problem I , for myself, would include the spinach. Spinach contains oxalic acid that many of us have found to be a major irritant.

As far as the beef is concerned cows don't ordinarily eat corn. It makes them susceptible to all kinds of infections When they are placed in feed lots and fed corn they have to be given large doses of antibiotics in order to keep them healthy enough to be acceptably large enough to be taken to market. Grass fed beef doesn’t need to be given these antibiotics. In the I can eat grass fed beef, bison, chicken, pork and wild game without problems I have had to consider that the antibiotics still in the meat might be a problem for me.

For an interesting look at the process of fattening beef with corn and its intrinsic problems read Michael Pollens “The Omnivores Dilemma”

Hope this helps

Matthew

[tex]

Matthew,

I agree with you - while oxalic acid doesn't seem to bother me, it can certainly cause problems for many people with already-compromised digestive systems, and anyone with MC certainly has a compromised digestive system.

I rarely eat beef anymore, but I still consider it to be a safe, healthy choice of protein. To clarify a point in your post - you infer that corn causes cattle to become susceptible to infections, thus creating a need for antibiotics to keep them healthy. Well, yes and no - no, eating corn does not make them any more susceptible to infection than eating grass, and - yes, the confinement with other cattle in a feedlot setting, makes them more susceptible to infections, due to the constant close presence of other cattle, (just as people working in an office environment are much more likely to get sick that you and I, who work in less confined conditions, mostly isolated from other people, for most of the day.

While I have to agree that M. Pollans book is very entertaining reading, due to the fact that he's an exceptionally eloquent writer, the information contained in it, (other than the fact that it makes for interesting reading), is lost on the typical American consumer, (or international consumer, for that matter), simply because the dietary goals that he promotes, (by default, based on the negative analysis he attributes to our current "industrial food chain"), are simply unattainable, for anyone outside a class of, (for want of a better word), "elite" individuals, who can grow their own, and/or are willing to eschew convention, and do whatever it takes to pursue the goal of eating "unconventionally". Logistics, (and reality, unfortunately), dictate that if a significant percentage of modern society actually attempted to drastically alter their dietary habits, the world's food chain would break down in a matter of months, not years, due to the low pipeline supplies in the market, and the lack of any significant reserve food supplies, anywhere in the world. Look at what happened with rice a few months back, when rationing was imposed at many stores, simply because of a minor glitch in the supply chain.

Pollan rails against corn, but he freely points out that corn, (maize), is the most efficient food species ever known on this planet, due mostly to it's somewhat unique ability to generate a "C-4" carbon arrangement, in it's photosynthesis compounds, and numerous other "bred-in" production advantages. In fact, nothing could replace it, if we were to stop producing it. If, for example, we replaced those corn acres with grass, to feed "free-ranging" beef, the annual beef yield would plumet, and beef would rapidly become a very precious commodity. We can't replace it with wheat, because wheat is even more unhealthy than corn, and won't produce but about half the yield of corn, or less, per acre. What would we eat? (By "we", I mean the general population, not just you and I). Hogs and chickens can eat grass, but since they have a monogastric digestive system, (only one stomach), they can't digest it, so they'll starve to death if it's their only food.

We may get a glimpse of that prospect next year, unless the Mid-West corn crop escapes an early freeze, and yields a bumper crop, against all odds. This years crop has one of the latest average planting dates on record, and historically, that does not bode well for production prospects. Our corn crop, here in Texas, is probably going to end up at approximately half of normal production levels, but what happens here in Texas, makes virtually no difference to the figures for the total U. S. corn crop. Anyway, the point is, we must have normal or better production in the Mid-West, or we will not have enough corn to go around. Some of the ethanol plants will not be able to operate, and corn could be so expensive that feeding it to livestock will be totally unfeasible. The largest order buyer for feeder cattle in the world, has it's headquarters within a few miles of where I live. They precondition feeder cattle for feedlots. Several moths ago, they stopped buying corn, and converted to an all grass operation, with special protein supplementation. Consequently, the feeder calves that they sell will weigh less than they used to. Whether they sell to a grass-finisher, or a feedlot, the cattle will be lighter going in, and lighter when they go to slaughter. The difference in the volume of beef will result in a very significant increase in the price of beef, in the long run, as the market is forced to adjust to this new condition. Where will this meat shortfall be made up? Not in hogs, because they eat corn, also. Not in chickens and turkeys, because they eat corn and milo, and milo prices are in lockstep with corn, due to the fact that milo has at least a 90 % feed conversion rate, when compared with corn. Unless some miracle occurs, we will be eating less meat in the future, and paying more for it. Will this make vegetables, fruit, or any other commodity foods cheaper, or more abundant? I don't think so.

IOW, Michael Pollan's book is interesting reading, but it amounts to beating a dead horse. As more bellies in the world begin to growl, we will be craving more corn, not less. The good news is that you'll have more grass-fed beef, the bad news is that you will have to pay more for it.

To add insult to injury, there seems to be more and more controversy over whether or not many foods that are claimed to be more nutritious, actually are. In fact, many of these dissenters have impressive credentials, and claim that the opposite is true - conventional foods are more nutritious in many cases, than organically produced products:

http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Scienc ... oned-again

This current trend in research reports, disputing the quality claims of organic food promoters, coupled with rising food prices, is probably going to cause a serious setback in the gains that the "organic" movement has made over the past few years.

That said, there is no question that each of us can still choose how we eat, regardless of how the masses get their calories. The hitch is that if more people choose to eat "healthier", then the more expensive food will become, and the greater the risk that we may start seeing serious food shortages.

If we manage to retain the luxury of choice, then Pollan's "omnivore's dilemma" still remains a valid question - "what do we eat?" "Healthier" is not a term that is strictly defined - it's a relative term, and a matter of personal opinion, to some extent, and what is healthier for one, is not necessarily healthier for all, (IOW, what is healthier for the individual is not necessarily healthier for the species, and vice versa), especially if physical constraints make it an impossible goal for the masses.

Tex

P S Okay, Matthew, what did you expect - almost all of my life, I've spent most of my working hours, working with corn. When Michael Pollen writes a book bad-mouthing custom made furniture, then it'll be your turn to write a rebuttal.

[MaggieRedwings]

I have found the Progresso Cream of Mushroom soup to work just fine for me. The only one I know of. Would also include the spinach as a culprit.

Maggie