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sarkin
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Post by sarkin »

Kari,

I hadn't remembered (till you mentioned it today) that you also have hypothyroid. My TSH was fine, and my doc didn't feel inclined to run the full panel - but at our next meeting, I'm going to lean in harder, because I would like to know whether I *narrowly averted* the possibility of additional AI conditions, or actually am *in the early stages* of any that we can possibly test for, so I can monitor how the diet is working - and this thread is a great example of why that info is important to me. I can see why, even though all these conditions may interrelate, that makes keeping track additionally confusing. How is your candida program going? (I think that may be in my mix as well?)

Tex,

Some years back, someone lent me Dr. Esselstyn's book, which advocates a vegan, no-added-oil diet to prevent and reverse heart disease. He gives the analogy of why "less" is not good enough - because, if you're a house afire, pouring "less" gasoline on the flames is not the solution. That sure makes sense to me in the inflammatory department, though at the time, I remember thinking - what if I'm not a house afire? Which, of course, I was not, in regard to heart issues (nor am I now, IMO). I wonder whether this gives some indication of why some folks can eat crucifers and achieve benefits, where others have drastic increased inflammation - on top of existing inflammation, potentially tipping over into a drastic increase of IBD symptoms. (Of course, this exact same analogy of 'house afire' works perfectly for those of us who cannot have "less" gluten, but can only reverse the inflammation with NONE.)

I have a book called Wild Health, which describes the myriad of documented ways in which wild animals address their health: they change their diet to include non-favorite foods when certain pests are prevalent, or go out of their way to line their nests with certain plants that have insect-deterring properties... the list goes on and on, it was a really interesting read. I'm mentioning it in this context because - maybe *for some people* and *at some times* eating crucifers adds some component of merit - even though it means incurring a risk - whereas for others, perhaps all the time, the risk outweighs the benefits.

This is the problem with the simple-minded thinking of "are they good or bad" - not your thinking, Tex, it's the very nature of the study - of these kinds of studies generally. A substance, method, or drug can only be good or bad - there can be no contingencies. (And this is why dwillions of women are threatening their health on statins, along with healthy men without heart disease.)

Esselstyn's diet is another perfect example - I know for sure that I cannot thrive on that diet. In fact, I was eating that diet - a personal GF adaptation, mind you - right before I got so sick with MC. I believe it's possible that, had I been eating a different, non-GF diet, I would have been in better shape to handle the horrific crash - and I believe it doesn't matter whether that was a "celiac" attack or something else, because in addition to the gut inflammation, I must have had enough other inflammation going on in the body as well. (Sorry, this might be part of my 'celiac disease is a misnomer' rant - which is still confused, but I take issue with both "celiac" and "disease" in that case, as you already know... which is just as well, because I probably missed out on my chance to score that Dx by being too sick with MC to drag myself anywhere for an endoscopy at that moment when I bet I could have actually impressed someone.)

Anyway - I know these n=1 examples are anecdotal, but I would be interested in whether you suspect taht fermentation makes sauerkraut a safer food, or whether you feel you were mostly lucky during your recovery, to be able to use that food without making things worse. (Or maybe it did, in fact, slow your healing down?) I realize there's no way to know for sure how that factor played in.

Forgive me if I'm misremembering your sauerkraut connection. We are hitting that time of year, when my husband is pining to make bigos (Polish hunter's stew), and cabbage (both fermented and not) are key ingredients.

And having said all that - Dr. Esselstyn may yet be right that eating his diet *preventively* rather than as a treatment can prevent a person from ever having the particular heart problems that he has used the diet to reverse in his seriously ill cardiac patients. But - that doesn't mean it confers optimal health on those who eat it, or is right for everybody. This applying of one answer to a thousand questions... doesn't seem right and yet seems really hard to avoid (even to detect, sometimes).

Love,
Sara

p.s. I can't stop thinking of one more thing, I'm sorry! It seems to me that we were probably meant to eat certain things "occasionally" - and that we are adapted even to eat some things that aren't ideal for us under starvation conditions (yea, even gluten grains - but not daily). So - let's suppose we'd have eaten crucifers in season, maybe preferring other veg if we could find 'em - I'm hunting/gathering here, in this thought experiment - so we could 'harvest' some benefits in a greatly varied diet, provided we didn't eat them long enough that the lectins (or other potential mechanisms of harm) could catch up with us. Now, we learn there are health benefits and we eat *everything good for us* *every chance we get* - assuming the benefits are always cumulative, and the risks are not. And of course we can find sources on the web to tell us we should cut eggs altogether, or quadruple our intake - but what if both lines of thought, as a general rule, should be suspect?

I gotta stop, but, um, YIKES. :shock:
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Post by tex »

Sara,

That's an important point. Paleo people probably ate meat or fish yeararound, (or whenever they could manage to do so), but virtually all vegetables, fruit, etc., had to be on a seasonal schedule, because there were no warehouses and supermarkets, and they didn't have access to trading partners on the other side of the equator. Therefore, virtually every specific fruit or vegetable had to have a very narrow window of opportunity, when it would be available, and since they were nomadic, they couldn't store much dried fruit or veggies, anyway. They probably ate a wide variety, on an annual basis, but they probably had a very limited selection, at any given time, and for much of the year, the selection probably sucked. :lol:

It's a totally different world, today, where all foods are virtually always available, and the USDA Food Pyramid, (or Plate, or whatever they're calling it these days), implies that we should eat these foods every day, in order to be healthy. When you think about it - does that make any sense, in view of our evolutionary diet patterns?

Love,
Tex
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Post by Kari »

Wow Tex - the acorn is growing :lol: . This is sounding more and more like another gluten, where the brainwashing to "eat it for your health" is mighty questionable. Of course, it is a very individual thing. It amazes me how much variability there is in our reactions to foods, whether it's cruciferous veggies, or other things. I know that for myself, moderation is definitely key, but then there are those things that I absolutely must stay away from, as eating brussel sprouts yesterday reminded me of very dramatically.

Sara - I believe I'm well on my way to knock the candida out of my system, and wish I knew of a test I could take that would give me a definitive answer of where it stands. However, I've come to believe that it's closely tied to the MC, and needs to be taken very seriously in order to reach remission and sound intestinal health. I'm trying to steer away from all sugar (including any type of sweetener), alcohol, coffee, bread, grains and starches for now. However, potatoes and rice keep sneaking into my diet, but I believe that even with some of those, I can still heal. I finally got pure, concentrated oregano oil, and will start taking some this evening. As I'm sure you know, it is touted as a serious weapon against candida.

As far as my hypothyroid condition, I only thought about a diet connection after I read the comment Marliss made about staying away from cruciferous veggies earlier in this thread (thanks Marliss). So now I'm studying up about what to eat (or not) for thyroid management. I will admit that it's a bit overwhelming, but I'm absolutely determined to reclaim my health, and am convinced that the answer is in the diet. I'm trying not to become fanatical about this, because then it starts to effect me psychologically. I'd rather stay open-minded and flexible, so I am ready to incorporate new ideas as they develop. I still believe that gluten is at the core of all these ills, and that as time goes by and I'm remaining gluten free, healing is taking place.

Love,
Kari
"My mouth waters whenever I pass a bakery shop and sniff the aroma of fresh bread, but I am also grateful simply to be alive and sniffing." Dr. Bernstein
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Post by sarkin »

Kari,

I know just what you mean about not being fanatical, and not letting it become psychologically debilitating. I agree that the key is the diet, absolutely, and though I'm doing really well, I think the larger picture of healing is much bigger than "haven't had D for a while" - and perhaps harder to achieve and maintain than I thought in the beginning (because I really had such a transformation with diet, plus the Pepto boost).

I'm a big oregano-oil fan, though without a ton of data. A friend's brother insisted that I try it, back in '97 - it in no way stopped my MC. I wish I had known about the gluten connection back then. I hope it makes a difference for you - you are in a position to utilize the benefits it may have, because you have eliminated so much that could stop it from doing its job. I take it most days - you can start with a single drop, and gradually increase it to a level that you've learned is therapeutic.

I think the no-grain, low-starch approach is working for me, though I do continue to drink coffee and wine. I sometimes think about my grandmother, born in Beirut, who could not eat a meal without bread. I sure have taken a different path.

I just had such a beautiful meal, a little too 'fancy' - but such a small portion, it was so luxurious. I seem to alternate between substantial portions of a plain food, and occasional tiny indulgences. (This was squash, cooked with onions in a little EVOO and dilute pomegranate juice, with salt and sage, topped with a sliver of the chicken-liver pate I made this morning. In fact, I should go back down to the kitchen right now, and freeze most of that delicious pate, so I can enjoy it for a long time.)

Tex,

It's funny, some of the 'strictly local' eating projects (especially in NYC!) seem to border on the silly. But - some modern compromise between "whatever we feel like, from wherever on earth," and eating so 'local/available' in wintertime as to risk scurvy, surely that is possible. Our CSA farmer's season is winding down in mid-November, and we won't see him again till June. We are lucky to have access to such a huge variety and quality of foods here - when I first moved to NYC, that was not the case, and the Greenmarkets program was just beginning.

As for extending or preserving the harvest, I would guess that fermentation, in particular, has long been a part of the human diet... I can't get that poor Swedish elk out of my mind, who was so enjoying the post-frost apples in the orchard that she got stuck in a tree, mildly intoxicated. (Talk about something not to do every day!) Clearly as humans wandered away from the equator, and Ice Ages came and went, we adapted in multiple ways, long before grain agriculture, and I wonder which of those ways are best borrowed and upgraded - for modern folk in general, but especially for those of us with MC.

Love,
Sara
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Post by Robin »

Hi Tex...Lets first start by saying you are amazing!!! I wish I lived closer to you so I can spend a day just talking to you about MC.

So here is my question...When I buy broccoli from a farm stand here on Long Island I have NO problems with it at ALL. When I buy broccoli in a supermarket watch out! But its not only me, my husband too has a problem with the supermarket broccoli and he has a cast iron stomach! So what is the difference? I wash both and cook it the same?

Thanks Tex!!!
Love all of your post!
Wishing you a Very Happy and Healthy Life
Robin
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Post by tex »

Robin,

I appreciate your kind words, and good wishes, but unfortunately, I can't answer your question. I have no idea what the difference might be, because theoretically, there shouldn't be any difference. Obviously, something must be different about them, though. :shrug:

Sorry I couldn't be helpful.

Tex
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It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Post by sarkin »

Robin,

This thread is perfectly tailored to bring out every possible thing I tend to rant and rave about - and let me start by saying I don't know the answer... BUT - our supermarket seems to spray the produce with something. We do buy produce from them, but - sometimes I feel as though I can even taste something weird. Had a little freakout about their parsley, just last night. My policy is to rinse/wash everything, then store - my husband's plan was to chop, then wash - but I could "smell" that wasn't going to work for me, and I meant that literally as well as figuratively.

(My heart goes out to him, with all the new kitchen rules MC & I have imposed - but after the cantaloupe scare, I think he no longer gets to roll his eyes when I say *again* to 'wash first' - he's going to have to buck up!)

Do you think it could be something like that - something in the misting/shpritzing system? I also can sometimes *taste* shrink wrap on certain kinds of food... soapy/plasticky/gross. If your healthy husband has the same problem, you should ask the produce manager at your supermarket what explanation they might have. You'd be amazed how receptive they might be - a friend marched down to our corner, formerly 'ghetto' supermarket, and told them that if they stocked organic milk, she'd make sure it sold out, if she had to buy it all herself. It was the beginning of a huge (and slow) transformation in their offerings.

Obviously, I'm guessing - but I believe you...
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Post by Robin »

Its funny that you said the thing about the spraying on the vegetables! I thought it was just water. However, last week when I was shopping the sprayer came on and I thought I smelled something funny. There was a lady standing next to me and asked if I could smell that and what was it that we were smelling? I thought it was stale water and told the produce man that I think they should clean out the hose where the water comes out of. he told me he would look into it. Tomorrow morning I will be back there asking the manager what it being sprayed on the VEGETABLES!!!!

WOW! I would hate to think they are spraying a chemical on my vegetables!

Thank you
Lots of health and happiness
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Post by sarkin »

Robin,

I think we MC folks are the proverbial canary in the mine shaft - if there's something funky in that hose, or some weird goo in the mix, *it will bother us*... but the fact that this is affecting your husband as well means that this time, no one can pretend it's all in our heads!

Before MC, my husband was actually more tummy-sensitive than I was to food being 'slightly off.' He also has a weird premonition that he will have a bout of insomnia, when his sense of smell is hyper-acute. You can imagine the eye-rolling this gets, if he ever mentions it to a doctor, but there's no doubt about it, and I'm so curious what it could mean.

If you can smell it, there was something to smell. Can't wait to hear the outcome!
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Post by tex »

I've been known to be suspicious of that myself, but I can't find any incriminating evidence. All sources, including employees who work in produce departments, insist that only water is sprayed on the vegetables. :shrug:

Tex
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Post by Robin »

I guess I will have to a detective now! I will bring a sterile jar with me and wait for the sprayer to come on! Then I will take that sample of so called water and bring it to Brookhaven labs!!!!!

I WILL GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS ONE!!!!!

Robin
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Post by tex »

This could become mighty interesting. :wink:

Tex
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It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Post by sarkin »

Go, CSI Robin! We are counting on you... and I do believe that even if it's only water, some critter could take up residence in the equipment. EWWWW!

Our supermarket does use air freshener (or something) - not that I believe they spray it on food! But I can smell it when we buy paper towels there...

I'm on tenterhooks till you report back :shock:
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Post by Zizzle »

Robin,
I'm pretty confident the supermarket sprayers are just water, perhaps moldy water from dirty equipment, but water nonetheless. I think there is probably a sizeable difference between farmstand broccoli and supermarket broccoli. For starters, the farmstand broccoli doesn't last nearly as long as the supermarket variety, despite being fresher. I find that bizarre. Almost all supermarket broccoli is grown in California, so it may be subject to totally different soil, fertilizers and pesticides than the stuff grown locally. I imagine the answer to your reactions lies in the chemicals your broccoli is exposed to while being grown and shipped across the country. A more fruitful experiment might be buying supermarket "organic" and "conventional" broccoli, and seeing if you react the same to both.

Marliss and Kari,
Regarding crucifers and thyroid activity, it seems there is a dose-response relationship, and you need to eat obscene amounts of crucifers to affect your thyroid. IMHO, I don't believe there is a reason to swear off an entire family of vegetables forever. Moderation in all foods is key.
Iodine and Thyroid Function

Very high intakes of cruciferous vegetables, such as cabbage and turnips, have been found to cause hypothyroidism (insufficient thyroid hormone) in animals (68). There has been one case report of an 88-year-old woman developing severe hypothyroidism and coma following consumption of an estimated 1.0 to 1.5 kg/day of raw bok choy for several months (69). Two mechanisms have been identified to explain this effect. The hydrolysis of some glucosinolates found in cruciferous vegetables (e.g., progoitrin) may yield a compound known as goitrin, which has been found to interfere with thyroid hormone synthesis. The hydrolysis of another class of glucosinolates, known as indole glucosinolates, results in the release of thiocyanate ions, which can compete with iodine for uptake by the thyroid gland. Increased exposure to thiocyanate ions from cruciferous vegetable consumption or, more commonly, from cigarette smoking, does not appear to increase the risk of hypothyroidism unless accompanied by iodine deficiency. One study in humans found that the consumption of 150 g/day (5 oz/day) of cooked Brussels sprouts for four weeks had no adverse effects on thyroid function (70).
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/f ... uciferous/

With regard to moderation, I may sould like a spokeswoman for the cruciferous vegetable association, but my concern is more about the variety (or lack thereof) of foods being consumed by MCers. Another post today about MRT results shows people tend to start reacting to foods they eat on a regular basis (even rice), so ultimately, nothing is 100% safe forever. If we have a leaky gut, there is a good likelihood we will eventually react to the foods we rely on most. It's depressing, but I think it's an important reminder to keep a rotation of varied foods. Cruciferous vegetables have many micronutrients we lack (potassium, folate, selenium, Vit C, etc), and the link to some level of cancer protection among people with the right genetics is fairly strong. While MC symptoms seem to dominate our daily decisions about food, we should not forget that other (worse) diseases have the potential to strike, and we should eat for those too. :sad:

Sara,
Regarding our hunter-gatherer ancestors, we need to remember they had a very short life expectancy. Most did not live long enough to reach the average age of MC diagnosis :wink: , so who knows what true health benefits they derived from their diet. They mostly died from infectious causes, but perhaps nutrient deficiencies also played a role? They also didn't have our exposures to chemical toxins, modern-day bacteria mutations, indoor living, etc, so they truly were a different breed of people. I definitely agree that grains were not indended to be eaten by humans, and food should be eaten in as close to its natural state as possible, but beyond that, I'm not sure how much we can learn from our ancestors that we can realistically put into practice. We've been dealt a particular set of cards...


In the interest of amassing evidence for or against cruciferous vegetables, I wonder if Polly, with her MC-free histology, eats cruciferous vegetables?
Did her excess lymphocytes go away, despite a diet that may have included cruciferous vegetables? :headscratch:
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sarkin
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Post by sarkin »

Z,

It's often stated that our hunter-gatherer ancestors had short lives, and mostly died of infections diseases, but in fact, that appears not to be the case. (That is absolutely true for grain-eating, agricultural societies, though - )

The reports of 'civilized' explorers sailing around the world were full of astonishment at how upright and vigorous the old folks were, in 'primitive' societies they encountered - they weren't enfeebled, they had all their teeth, they were gorgeous - these explorers considered them savages, still, but they were impressed. I'm not digging in my backyard with a stick, mind you - but that "life was awful" assumption is pretty competently debunked in the more research-y based Paleo writings. I'm not authoritative on this, but found some of those folks' writings to be thoughtful, evidence-based, and well-written.

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that hunter-gatherers hit nutritional deficiencies along the way (hey, they had Ice Ages), but that's not what they're reporting from the archaeological record, by a long shot. (They apparently died, often, from human-on-human violence - so says Stephen Pinker in his latest book, which is another whole tangent.)

Not sure where that leaves us - I guess I disagree that we have nothing to learn about optimal human nutrition by considering our biological and cultural history in a bigger context. (And yes, we need to turn off the lights and get off the Internet at 11pm, get some sleep, move around - many things other than diet make our lives different.)

S
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