Even A Blind Hog Finds An Acorn Now And Then :shock:

[tex]

Hi All,

While looking at recent research reports, I may have stumbled upon another reason why avoiding vegetables helps to reduce MC symptoms. It seems that cruciferous vegetables regulate the level of a cell-surface protein known as the aryl hydrocarbon receptor (AhR), and AhR, in turn, regulates the level of intra-epithelial lymphocytes, (IELs). An elevated IEL count, as we all know, is the primary marker of lymphocytic colitis.

So, in essence, what this research shows is that if someone doesn't eat cruciferous vegetables, their epithelial levels of AhR will fall, and that in turn, will cause their level of IELs to fall. Now the point of the research articles, of course, is to maintain that eating those vegetables is essential, in order to maintain a sufficiently high level of IELs for good immune system health. For those of us with MC, though, we'd like to see those IEL levels as low as possible, because those IELs are apparently the source of our intestinal inflammation.

I have a hunch that there's a lot more to the equation, than the simple conclusions indicated by the reports connected with this discovery. This may open the door, though, to someone who understands IBDs, to allow additional discoveries that may eventually lead to some real insight into how this actually connects with the etiology of IBDs.

It turns out that green vegetables -- from bok choy to broccoli -- are the source of a chemical signal that is important to a fully functioning immune system. They do this by ensuring that immune cells in the gut and the skin known as intra-epithelial lymphocytes (IELs) function properly.

"It is still surprising to me," said Marc Veldhoen of The Babraham Institute in Cambridge. "I would have expected cells at the surface would play some role in the interaction with the outside world, but such a clear cut interaction with the diet was unexpected. After feeding otherwise healthy mice a vegetable-poor diet for two to three weeks, I was amazed to see 70 to 80 percent of these protective cells disappeared."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 121509.htm

http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674%2811%2901136-6

How about that?

Tex

[MBombardier]

Those of us with thyroiditis have been avoiding cruciferous, goitrogenic veggies for a while... or we should have been. Good information, Tex. Thanks!

[Gabes-Apg]

Tex
I will see if i can forward those reports onto the aussie based researcher that has been looking at IBD's, mis diganosis of IBD's and non celiac gluten intolerance

[Gabby]

Dear Tex,

Did you intend to make an analogy between yourself and a blind hog stumbling upon an acorn? I can't agree with that. You are brilliant and quite a puzzle solver. Thanks for all you do.

Gabby

[tex]

Gabes,

Here's a link with an outline, in case your researcher is interested in seeing an outline of the article before purchasing it.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 7411011366

Tex

[tex]

Hi Gabby,

That really was just a lucky find. I was reading a routine food industry news article, (at the link below), and i just happened to notice a reference to IELs, so I decided to track down the source. I really believe that if someone figures out what's actually going on there, it could lead to a breakthrough in understanding IBDs.

http://www.nydailynews.com/lifestyle/he ... ystem.html

Thanks, I appreciate the kind words.

Tex

[Kari]

Hi Tex,

Just want to thank you for finding and posting this - an amazing acorn it is indeed :). Today I decided to "branch out" and try some brussel sprouts with my meal - MISTAKE!!! I had a horrible reaction, complete with stomach cramping, nausea, explosive D. and fatigue.

So I read your post again, as I had just skimmed over it the first time, and then went on the internet to get a list of cruciferous veggies. I discovered that the general advise for someone who is hypothyroid (read: me) is to steer clear of them, unless they are "killed" with over cooking. So not only are they bad for someone with LC, but also (as Marliss noted) for someone with thyroid issues .

You have helped me uncover yet another key to tailoring my diet - thanks again!!!

Love,
Kari

P.S. The really bizarre thing is that I had a nightmare about developing a goiter last night :).

[Zizzle]

Hmmm, I was in mourning for a moment, then I read the whole article.

With reduced numbers of these key immune cells, animals showed lower levels of antimicrobial proteins, heightened immune activation and greater susceptibility to injury. When the researchers intentionally damaged the intestinal surface in animals that didn't have normal AhR activity, the mice were not as "quick to repair" that damage.

I can see why decreasing our lymphocyte counts might seem like it would help MC, but I think they are there for a reason, parhaps a helpful, protective one. They are reacting to the wrong types of bacteria and/or food in our digestive tracts. They represent an immune system doing its best to deal with a foreign invader. By cutting the fuel to the lymphocytes (by stopping to eat cruciferous and other green vegetables), we risk letting the foreign invader get further out of control, perhaps leading to worse outcomes like Crohn's, UC, and other autoimmune diseases. IMHO, there is a reason MC manages to maintain a relatively steady course, without leading to overwhelming disease and death. I think the lymphocytes may play a role in that, again, a protective role. They are our line of defense against whatever is trying to take hold through our digestive tracts. They may be the cause of our symptoms, but perhaps they are the only thing that lies between us and a rampant, ulgier case of IBD?


I could be all wet, but for me, this article doesn't yet make the case for cutting out an entire family of otherwise healthy foods we were put on this earth to eat.

Maybe someone here wants to be the test case, cutting out all green things, and seeing if their MC improves.

[MBombardier]

Kari

[sarkin]

Z,

I think you're asking good questions. I'm confused as to whether the key ingredient is the cruciferousness, or the green-ness (and is that about leafiness or color?). So... would crucifers like cauliflower count? I know Tex and sauerkraut had a friendly relationship, back in the day... I guess I am liking that you're asking this question, and wishing I had a better question of my own.

Of course, if any two people on this board would be in denial about vegetable-eating being harmful, you and I would be the likeliest two

Kari,

SO sorry to hear that the Brussels sprouts gave you such a vigorous reaction. (Though sometimes, when I have a minor reaction, I can't tell what to make of it... you did get some certainty there, unpleasant though it is!)

Love,
Sara

[tex]

I can see why decreasing our lymphocyte counts might seem like it would help MC, but I think they are there for a reason, parhaps a helpful, protective one.

That statement is correct. Sure they are there for a reason. In fact, everything that the immune system does is for a reason. Normally, though, the lymphocyte count for a normal colon is only about 5 lymphocytes per 100 enterocytes. With LC, it's a minimum of 4 times that amount, by definition. Once the lymphocyte count is elevated, the immune system is in inflammatory mode, and it's designed to either "fix the problem", or "get off the pot". With MC, it does neither, because it is stuck in "TILT" mode.

A lymphocyte count of 5 is beneficial, and healthy - a count of 20 is not. The point is, the additional lympthocytes, (all those in excess of the normal count), are not there for a reason, (not for a valid reason, anyway). They are renegades - they're out of order. (Of course, they could be there for healing purposes, but since that's mission impossible, that still means that they're out of order).

By cutting the fuel to the lymphocytes (by stopping to eat cruciferous and other green vegetables), we risk letting the foreign invader get further out of control, perhaps leading to worse outcomes like Crohn's, UC, and other autoimmune diseases.

What foreign invaders? If they exist, why don't the lymphocytes destroy them, the way they are programmed to do? The answer is, "because they do not exist". Research shows that the risk of developing UC or Crohn's disease is the same for someone with MC, as it is for someone in the general population, regard of what they eat, so why would you feel that it is protecting us from Crohn's or UC? I can cite cases where MC has segued into one of those diseases. And what fuel? If we let MC run it's course, many of us will get to the point where we are mostly unable to absorb those nutrients, anyway. What good does it do to eat food that cannot be utilized?

Look at it this way - inflammation is a necessary first stage for healing. MC causes, (or is a result of, depending on how you look at it), chronic inflammation. And yet we never heal, unless we intervene to stop the inflammation. Left to it's own initiatives, the symptoms of MC just go on and on and on, stuck in an endless cycle of inflammation. Obviously, that's not a normal immune system function, and it's a very unhealthy situation. Chronic inflammation leads to additional problems, not solutions to problems. The only time inflammation has any beneficial effects, is during the healing process, and MC effectively prevents any healing from taking place. Can you think of any other situation, (or any other disease), where inflammation is an advantage to health?

IMHO, there is a reason MC manages to maintain a relatively steady course, without leading to overwhelming disease and death. I think the lymphocytes may play a role in that, again, a protective role.

Unfortunately, MC is not exactly as benign as you and the medical profession seem to think it is. For one thing, untreated MC virtually guarantees the accumulation of additional autoimmune diseases, to say nothing of neurological and physical damage, due to the malabsorption problems, and leaky gut issues that it causes. I can see no evidence that MC is protecting us from anything, except leading a normal life. Where's the evidence that it's protective of anything? Do you seriously believe that MC is protecting us from something? Do you feel that the other IBDs are protecting the people who have them, from something? What on earth could it be?

Trust me, MC is not a protective mechanism - it's an insidious, debilitating disease, and the sooner we reduce the inflammation levels, the better off we are, as far as our long-term health is concerned. If you plan to try to convince me that MC is a beneficial disease, you've probably got a lifetime project on your hands. That said, I'm certainly open to any logical thinking, because I'm easily swayed by solid evidence

Tex

[Kari]

Here is a decent list of cruciferous veggies:

Arugula
Brussels sprouts
Chard
Daikon
Mustard greens
turnips
Bok choy
Cabbage
Chinese cabbage
Kale
Radishes
Watercress
Broccoli
Cauliflower
Collard greens
Kohlrabi
Rutabagas

Here is a list of some veggies that are not cruciferous:

Green pepper
Asparagus
Tomatoes (fruit or veggie?)
Avocado (fruit or veggie?)
Green onion
Carrots
Green beans
Onion and garlic are fine

I'm trying to figure out where beets and squash fall???

I've been eating broccoli and cauliflower as my main veggies for quite some time and have not had "explosive" reactions like with the brussel sprouts. However, my BM's have not been firm in a very long time. I think the reason I've gotten away with eating those 2 veggies is because I have always overcooked them, which makes a big difference. I will try to switch them out until my healing is further along.

Love,
Kari

[sarkin]

Kari,

Beets are in the same family with spinach and quinoa and Swiss chard, and squash are cucurbits, along with cucumbers and melons. (Can you eat squash? It's my new food obsession.)

I respond very differently to arugula and to broccoli - I was able to tolerate young arugula greens, cooked in my chicken soup, even back in those bad first weeks (really, more like second weeks - the first weeks were pretty veg-free). But I doubt I could have eaten broccoli or cauliflower back then.

And I know Tex has reported relying on sauerkraut, so perhaps fermentation as well as cooking have some effect. I wonder whether turnips, as a root, have the same problematic effect as other plant parts?

Love,
Sara

[Kari]

Sara,

Well, that explains why I was reacting to fresh beets when I ate them. For some reason, canned beets (with no additives) don't seem to bother me, but fresh ones do big time.

Fortunately I can eat cucumbers, melon (not now due to candida) and squash - am glad to know they do not fall into the cruciferous category :). Actually, come to think of it, when I was up late last night trying to figure these veggies out, I read somewhere that winter squash are problematic for me. I have 3 things going, MC, candida and hypothyroid, so can't remember which condition that related to.

I had the squash obsession last fall :).

Incidentally, sweet potatoes are fine with regards to being non-cruciferous.

Love,
Kari

[tex]

Kari,

All cruciferous vegetables presumably belong to the mustard family, and there's another problem with this family of veggies - chemical compounds that have a function similar to lectins.

Organosulfur compounds are another plant defense against predation. Cruciferous vegetables (broccoli, cauliflower, kale, turnips, collards, Brussels sprouts, cabbage, kohlrabi, rutabaga, Chinese cabbage, and bok choy) contain stable glucosinolates in the amounts of 0.5–1 g/g (18, 19, 27, 72). Glucosinolates are natural pesticides, being toxic to insects (27, 76). The major glucosinolates in cabbage and Brussels sprouts—sinigrin, progoitrin, and glucobrassicin—are toxic to rats (27). Their goitrogenic activity and instances of kale poisoning in cattle are well described in the literature (27). Excessive glucosinolate concentrations in animal feed have been associated with signs of disease in dairy cattle (98) and with thyroid, liver, and kidney toxicity in animal models (99). Crambe meal in broiler chick diets has toxic effects and is not recommended for long-term feeding (100). As with citrus flavonoids, concentrations of bioactive compounds are generally higher in young sprouts than in mature plants (75). Three-day-old broccoli sprouts contained higher concentrations of sulforaphane than did the mature plant (33).

The red emphasis is mine, of course. I'm guessing that these toxins may be the reason why these foods promote lymphocytic infiltration into the intestinal epithelia. The lymphocytes have a very good reason to be there - obviously, toxins of this type are inflammatory, just as the lectins in wheat are inflammatory to those of us who happen to have immune systems that detect their presence. I still don't believe that these are as healthy for us as they are claimed to be. How could it be good for us to eat them, when our gut is already inflamed?

http://www.ajcn.org/content/72/6/1424.full

Love,
Tex