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tex
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Post by tex »

Zizzle wrote:They mostly died from infectious causes, but perhaps nutrient deficiencies also played a role? They also didn't have our exposures to chemical toxins, modern-day bacteria mutations, indoor living, etc, so they truly were a different breed of people.
Sara is quite correct, of course. To add to her observations:

Aren't you making some assumptions of convenience there, about how they died? Short-faced bears, and sabre-toothed tigers were pretty aggressive predators, and could easily outrun humans, so it's no wonder that the average life expectancy was short. And when you spend a large percentage of your time stabbing large animals with spears, or using clubs to fend off other predators who are intent on taking your kill away from you, serious injuries are quite common, and bites especially, often lead to fatal bacterial infections, as you mentioned. However, basically all types of bacterial strains that we have today, were common back then. Yes, they have changed over the years, but strangely, the ones that we find to be "antibiotic-resistant" today, have changed very little since pre-historic times, (contrary to popular assumptions).

I'm not disputing that many of them died from bacterial infections - I'm disputing your suggested reasons. They didn't die young because they were unhealthy - they died young because they were unlucky. The records suggest that when those people didn't get eaten by a predator, or befall some unfortunate accident, or succumb to a bacterial infection, they actually had a very good life-expectancy potential. Probably, though, few of them ever reached that point, because of their hazardous lifestyle.

In general, when comparing examples within a species, the taller, bigger-boned, more muscular, more generally robust examples, are not the ones who are prone to a lower life expectancy. It is also a fact that the larger the organism, the longer the lifespan. That general rule works pretty reliably all the way from amoeba, to whales. Therefore, the shorter-statured, less robust trend that began when animal protein was replaced by plant protein, automatically dictated a shorter life-expectancy potential for us. I'm not talking about average life-expectancy - I'm talking about life-expectancy potential, which is the general, ultimate lid on maximum life expectancy. Today, for example, that practical potential is approximately 115 years. Because of the changes that have occurred in our diets, our maximum life expectancy is much less today, than it would have been if our species had been able to continue to eat a paleo diet for the last 10,000 years or so.
Did her excess lymphocytes go away, despite a diet that may have included cruciferous vegetables? :headscratch:
You're forgetting that all we have to do, to get a negative ruling on LC, is to have a lymphocyte count below 21. Unfortunately, the lymphocyte count for a normal intestine is 5, not 20. The medical community just ignores everything in between - it's no man's land. Obviously, there's something wrong with that picture. That reminds me a lot of the classic diagnostic criteria for celiac disease - it's simply incorrect, because it's glaringly incomplete.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that the people whose average intestinal lymphocyte count falls in this "ignored range" are synonymous with the people who show low-level markers of celiac diseae, but don't qualify for a diagnosis, because of the arbitrary, (yet rigid), criteria required for a diagnosis. They are in the early stages of the disease, but they're simply undiagnosable, because of the inappropriate, (capricious), criteria used by the medical community for diagnosing the disease. IOW, they can't be diagnosed until they're as sick as a dog, because the medical community refuses to recognize a disease until it is fully developed.

Tex
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It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Post by Polly »

Hi Good Buddies:

I'm weighing in late on this one, but I have to say I agree mostly with the issues raised by Zizzle. And, in fact, I have always been a huge eater of cruciferous veggies.......yep, from day 1 ten years ago when I first was diagnosed with MC. The only one I am sensitive to (by MRT) is cauliflower, which I have eliminated. I believe this group of veggies to be among the healthiest foods we can eat. They have significant cancer-preventive properties and are recommended to help prevent macular degeneration. During the initial stages of MC, it may be wise to avoid them, as we would any veggie or fruit with a lot of fiber. But I would advise against eliminating them as a group because of MC (thyroid disease or specific food senstivities are different issues).

Like Tex, I just can't get too excited about that traditional medical cut-off point of under 5 lymphocytes being healthy and over 20 not. The name of our disease (MC) is totally incorrect/ridicluous to begin with. "MC" only refers to the fact that there are increased numbers of colonic lymphocytes seen under the microscope - it is non-specific and says nothing about the actual cause of our disease. "MC" only refers to the fact that our disease is named/measured by an increased inflammatory response in the colon. The name should actually be something like "colitis (which means inflammation of the colon) due to an imbalance of colonic bacteria along with specific food sensitivities (primarily gluten, dairy, soy, etc.)". To me, that is the main issue. (aside- Wouldn't the GI docs have to sit up and take notice if we used that name for our disease??). The inflammation, which is measured by lymphocytes, is the body's natural and healthy response to the imbalance of bacteria and food sensitivities. The ONLY way we can get to remission is by gettting the colonic bacteria back into balance and teasing out and eliminating all of our sensitive foods. To me, eliminating an important food group (cruciferous veggies) to try to change lymphocytes is not getting to the root of the problem. Especially because of the amazing benefits from eating them.

Interesting topic, for sure!

Hugs,

Polly
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Post by MBombardier »

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7797 ... dinalpos=3

Most of the abstract is about the amazing cancer-inhibiting effects of the Brassica oleracea (Cruciferae) vegetables, so the following quote is kind of out of left field:
The first toxic effects of isothiocyanates and other hydrolytic products from glucosinolates that were identified were goitre and a general inhibition of iodine uptake by the thyroid.
I get the whole dose-dependent thing, and I am not going to give up broccoli as a part of a dish or riced cauliflower as a replacement for rice just because they have goitrogenic properties. But I certainly will not (when I can again :smile: ) eat the quantities of them that I used to.

And I think the degree of hypothyroidism should play into the equation, too. I am severely hypothyroid, and it is Hashimoto's thyroiditis, an autoimmune disease, not just plain ol' hypothyroidism, which is where the thyroid just doesn't produce enough hormone. In thyroiditis, the thyroid enlarges anyway in an effort to do its job, so whether a food is mildly goitrogenic is more important.
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Post by Zizzle »

I'm not disputing that many of them died from bacterial infections - I'm disputing your suggested reasons. They didn't die young because they were unhealthy - they died young because they were unlucky. The records suggest that when those people didn't get eaten by a predator, or befall some unfortunate accident, or succumb to a bacterial infection, they actually had a very good life-expectancy potential. Probably, though, few of them ever reached that point, because of their hazardous lifestyle.
I'm not suggesting they were not healthy while they were alive, but they did not live long enough to show us what would have ailed them in their 30s, 40s, 50s and beyond. Crowding, as populations grew and had to move around in search of food and temperate climates, was a major source of infectious diseases, and those diseases had an impact on their growth and health (if they survived). Crowding is obviously a factor in our health status today.

This timeline provides an interesting look at what our ancestors ate and what they may have died of. I also found it interesting that they were eating wild wheat and barley as early as 17,000 B.C.

http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb ... ew1c.shtml
At this time, wild grains, including wheat and barley by 17,000 B.C.--before their domestication--were being gathered and ground into flour as evidenced by the use of mortars-and-pestles in what is now modern-day Israel. By 13,000 B.C. the descendants of these peoples were harvesting wild grains intensely and it was only a small step from there to the development of agriculture.
In general, when comparing examples within a species, the taller, bigger-boned, more muscular, more generally robust examples, are not the ones who are prone to a lower life expectancy. It is also a fact that the larger the organism, the longer the lifespan. That general rule works pretty reliably all the way from amoeba, to whales. Therefore, the shorter-statured, less robust trend that began when animal protein was replaced by plant protein, automatically dictated a shorter life-expectancy potential for us.
Hmmm, I'm thinking of dogs- the little ones live longer. And scandinavian versus smaller mediterranean people. Does height and body mass really give them a longer life? Health is dictated by a complicated mix of genetics, environment and lifestyle. Unfortunately for us, environment seems to play a leading role in our life expectancy, both average and potential. There are plenty of grain eating, low-meat consuming Americans living to 100 and beyond (at least I see them on the Today Show :smile: ). How can that be? I guess they are lucky, and their optimum genetics and environment allowed it to happen.

Don't get me wrong. I'm totally supportive of the Paleo diet and the research behind it. I wish I had the willpower, time and budget to pursue it 100%. But without addressing our disease causing environment, including the way our meat and plant matter is produced, eating Paleo now is just not the same as 10,000+ years ago.
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Post by tex »

What if the T cells that are counted as a marker of LC are not be the actual cause of the inflammation, but rather they're simply there in their normal role of helping to heal the damage. A type of T cells known as gammadelta T cells, (γδ T cells), are essential to the normal wound-healing process. I see no reason why they would not be necessary for healing in the intestines, just as they are in virtually all other types of tissue. For the skin, for example:
Patients with nonhealing wounds have a defective epidermal T cell response.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20483798

And for the central nervous system:

http://ntp.neuroscience.wisc.edu/facult ... Fabry2.pdf

In the healing of fractures:

https://iris.ucl.ac.uk/research/browse/ ... ource_id=2

That would mean that the T cells are not implicated in the cause of the disease, but rather they're a symptom of the disease.

:monkey: :headscratch:

Tex
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Post by Zizzle »

We set an aseptic cerebral injury (ACI) to see what the consequences of pre-primed, autoreactive type-1 and type-2 memory T cells gaining
access to the brain in the course of sterile tissue injury would be. Neither of these autoimmune response types induced pathology; on the
contrary, both accelerated re-vascularization and post-traumatic healing. The data suggest that induction of either type-1 or type-2
autoimmune responses is not inherently noxious to the host, but can have beneficial effects on tissue repair.
Autoimmune pathology may
develop only if molecules of microbial origin such as pertussis toxin additionally induce the ‘‘infectious nonself/danger’’ reaction in the
antigen-presenting cells (APC) of the target organ itself.
Precisely! :grin: I see the lymphocytes as a marker of the disease, which happens to be the only evidence modern medicine has that there is a disease process going on. The body is doing what it can to heal the intestinal damage, by allowing the lymphocytes to proliferate and do battle against an unrecognized foe (or recognized, in the case of food sensitivities like gluten). This, of course, feeds into my belief that autoimmune diseases are not the body mistakenly attacking itself. They are the body attacking a foreign invader or antigen, which happen to be taking up residence in our cells, so our cells become the innocent bystanders of the immune system trying to defend its host. In MC (or Lupus, RA, etc), the reason we never fully heal, is that we cannot rid our body 100% of the offending pathogens or antigens.

Maybe it's too much faith in the body doing what it's supposed to, but that's how I see it.
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Post by tex »

Zizzle wrote:I also found it interesting that they were eating wild wheat and barley as early as 17,000 B.C.
Yes, but wild emmer wheat only produced a few kernels of seed per stalk. Remember that hunter-gatherers had to compete with wild animals for any food that they found, and that included wild grains. Deer and other ungulates seek out plants such as wild wheat, because of their palatability. The wild ancestors of wheat could never have provided more than a tiny fraction of the average diet for most paleo people, because of it's low production potential, and it's limited locations. Probably a few lucky tribes ate more than others, but most probably weren't able to derive much benefit from it, unless they happened to live in the area known as the fertile crescent.
Zizzle wrote:There are plenty of grain eating, low-meat consuming Americans living to 100 and beyond (at least I see them on the Today Show Smile ). How can that be? I guess they are lucky, and their optimum genetics and environment allowed it to happen.
100 is not old, and the fact that so few people live that long these days, that we consider that to be a remarkable accomplishment, is a testament to our generally sorry state of health. Currently, over 115 is old. You won't find many people older than 115 who did not grow up eating meat. While there is no known theoretical limit to our potential longevity, our diet, and our accumulated genetic defects, will prevent most of us from ever challenging that limit. By "us", I'm referring to the general population that represents our species, not just those of us with MC. The bottom line is, we should be living much longer than we are - obviously something is preventing that from happening, and it's almost certainly diet and compromised genetics.

Tex
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It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Post by tex »

Zizzle wrote:This, of course, feeds into my belief that autoimmune diseases are not the body mistakenly attacking itself. They are the body attacking a foreign invader or antigen, which happen to be taking up residence in our cells, so our cells become the innocent bystanders of the immune system trying to defend its host.
We are in 100% agreement, there. :grin:

Tex
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It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Post by Kari »

Thanks Zizzle and Marliss for shedding more light on the thyroid issue. I was hyper thyroid in my mid 30's, which turned to hypo after my treatment with radio iodine. I really haven't given it much thought since then, as it has been very stable on the daily synthroid I've been taking.

In my struggle to reach MC remission, I am so grateful for any additional insight coming my way that can help me figure out what I can do to heal, and if it has the added benefit of addressing one of my other health issues, that's a great bonus.

As far as cruciferous vegetables, I believe I stated before that "for now" I will try to stay clear of them to see if it will make any difference in my healing (stay tuned :)). The word "moderation" resonates very strongly with me, and I feel certain that once I heal more, I can eat a lot of things that I'm not eating now.

Love,
Kari

P.S. I believe that this thread is an example of what makes this forum so great. We are all highly motivated people trying to solve the puzzle that's affecting our quality of life :).
"My mouth waters whenever I pass a bakery shop and sniff the aroma of fresh bread, but I am also grateful simply to be alive and sniffing." Dr. Bernstein
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Post by MBombardier »

:iagree: :grin: And you can bet your sweet bippy that we will never have a discussion like this with our doctor!!
Marliss Bombardier

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Post by Deb »

Another great thread. I just continue to learn.......Thanks!
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Post by sarkin »

Zizzle wrote: I'm not suggesting they were not healthy while they were alive, but they did not live long enough to show us what would have ailed them in their 30s, 40s, 50s and beyond.
Z - again, that's not what I've been reading.
Crowding, as populations grew and had to move around in search of food and temperate climates, was a major source of infectious diseases, and those diseases had an impact on their growth and health (if they survived). Crowding is obviously a factor in our health status today.
Crowding - that's what happens when people settle down, and raise an agriculture, no?


...they were eating wild wheat and barley as early as 17,000 B.C.
I find that interesting, too, but the Paleolithic timeframe is tens of thousands of years earlier. If you're working with a mortar and pestle, on something as tedious as grains, you're living in a pretty settled circumstance. (I do a lot of reading about edibles and foraging, and these foods are described as 'fiddly' - it's a real "pull up a chair" kind of process.)

Regarding dogs - sure, if you overbreed giant dogs, they'll die young; now they're overbreeding little dogs in such a way that some of them succumb horribly young, too. The rate of change on the doggie genome is astronomically faster than what's going on with humans, because their evolution is the result of selective breeding - that's artificial selection, and much faster than natural selection.

I always spent premium money on food, before MC. I don't spend more money on food eating Paleo. IMO it would be more expensive to eat GF products, than to eat sensible Paleo... I feel very fortunate to have access to great fresh/local produce and meat, and to be able to afford making choices not on price alone.

Of course you're right that eating Paleo now is different from eating and everything else *100,000* years ago. That's the EEA for humans. A mere 10,000 years ago, the timeframe you're citing is neolithic/agricultural. I don't want to live like either of those sets of humans, because they didn't have this forum - but the fact that we aren't wandering around making threatening gestures with stone weapons is not an argument for eating foods that we cannot possibly have adapted to eat, in the evolutionary blink of an eye that is the past 10-20,000 years.

I see I'm about 12 posts behind already, and I just got home from work - awesome topic, friends. Will be rejoining you when I catch up down the road...

xox/S
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Post by Polly »

I also agree that lymphocytes are markers (and not the cause) of disease.

But I do think the jury is still out as to the actual mechanism involved in AI disease. Zizzle, it does make sense to me that it could be some unknown antigen in the cell that is causing the body to attack that cell. For example, this could be the case with Mycobacterium tuberculosis para avis - which is a bug that excels in eluding detection by current methods and also requires months to years of treatment to eradicate. It is also the bug that causes Johne's disease, a disease in cattle that resembles MC. (Tex and I have always suspected a bacterial cause for MC, as you know). Or, perhaps environmental contaminants in that cell could alter the cell, causing it to be attacked.

However, here is another possibility. I recall years ago in a phone chat with Dr. Fine that he said that the hunter-gatherers had excellent immunity to infectious disease. He felt that this excellent immunity was still seen in those today who had hunter-gatherer genes/ancestry. I have always believed that I have an exceedingly robust immune system. I describe it as overactive or hyperreactive. (BTW, Tex and I have agreed to disagree on this point - he believes MC is caused by an underactive immune system).

We may still genetically have a primitive robust immune system, but it has much less work to do in modern times. Indeed, billions of lymphocytes stand by at all times, ready to rush to our guts whenever we eat. It was necessary in olden days, with impure water and spoiled foods being ingested with virtually every meal. Now, however, with our safer food/water supplies, they have much less work to do. Also, we have far less bacteria on our skin to enter into our bodies, due to frequent handwashing and antibacterial soaps. Not to mention the decimation of bacteria by antibiotics. So, some believe that our primitive immune system, with so much power and so many fewer infectious foreign invaders to fight now, begins to attack the body's own cells (or foods like gluten, dairy, etc.) and that this mechanism may underly AI diseases.

Another factor that I think is involved here is the degree of "robustness" of our immune systems. Some folks mount a much greater immune response than is needed. I think I am in this category. I "overreact" to the antigen......... like my in my experience with vaccines, or even the titanium dental implant that I recently rejected. IOW, the degree of response of my immune system is overkill - resulting in the release of excess chemical mediators (like cytokines). I am sure I would have died in the 1918 flu pandemic. That pandemic was unique in that those most likely to die were the young, healthy ones, those with the best immune systems. The virus itself (the antigen) did not kill them - it was the excess chemicals released by the immune system cells that literally destroyed lung tissue and killed them. When we thought that bird flu might become a problem several years ago, my PCP recommended that I begin taking prednisone immediately if I believe I had been exposed to bird flu, in order to keep a lid on my immune system.

This is fun stuff to toss around, no?

Hugs,

Polly
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Post by sarkin »

Polly,

SO FUN.

I have also read that many of the young, healthy patients who succumbed in 1918 (clearly not all) were massively overdosed with aspirin, the new wonder drug of the time. (That must have been the young WWI soliders?)

It has always seemed to me that the genetics for an immune system that can be 'triggered' to make us 'trigger-happy' to certain foods must have had some selective advantage, or there would be many fewer celiac and non-celiac sensitive folks walking around. So - did folks like us mount a more successful immune response to typhoid illnesses, or cholera, or TB or smallpox... or a whole class of bugs? What does work against Mycobacterium tuberculosis para avis (and probably other intruders) - is it a multi-pronged attack we have to mount, to eliminate it - if it's there?

I wonder whether you would have 'overreacted' to that titanium implant, had your immune system never encountered gluten. It's one thing to be robust, and another to have your biology primed to fight non-invaders, after years of ingesting 'stealth' proteins that mimic serious pathogens just enough to whack out gut and other immune responses, to the point where MC finds us.

xox/S
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Post by Zizzle »

Polly,
I think I join you in the hyperreactive immune system category. In the last 2 years I've barely had the sniffles, and I have 2 kids in school that are often sick. I've watched my husband and coworkers struggle with colds and flu, and me, nothing, despite my struggle with MC. The only bugs I am prone to are GI bugs. I react to nickel and would surely reject any implant of any foreign material. My skin reacts to all sorts of substances and simple scratches (dermographia). I'd love for this to be advantageous someday, but sadly I dream of losing kidney or liver function to some random AI attack someday.
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