My grandmother died in the 1918 flu epidemic. She was 29. My dad was only 3. I don't know if she took aspirin.
Martha
Even A Blind Hog Finds An Acorn Now And Then :shock:
Moderators: Rosie, Stanz, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
Sara,
You're certainly right on the money about mortars and pestles not being tools that nomadic hunger-gatherers would have used. Mortars were not exactly portable, back in those days - they were hollows laboriously carved in solid rock.
Hmmmmmmm. Aspirin could indeed have played a negative role in that pandemic, because an adverse reaction to NSAIDs, typically involves the production of leukotriens, (which, of course, is an inflammatory response) - plus the fact that the production of leukotrienes is usually accompanied by the production of histamine. So in additional to all the miserable respiratory symptoms, that situation can also lead to anaphylaxis.
That's not exactly chiseled in stone, since I'm mostly basing my opinion on the observation that we appear to be lacking regulatory T cells, (which would suggest an underactive immune system). If the T cells should only be present to promote healing, than that would cast doubt on the underactive immune system theory. So as John Maynard Keyne once said, "When the facts change, I change my mind." LOL. I reckon the jury is still out on this, also, since the medical community considers MC to be the result of an inflammatory T cell reaction.
Tex
You're certainly right on the money about mortars and pestles not being tools that nomadic hunger-gatherers would have used. Mortars were not exactly portable, back in those days - they were hollows laboriously carved in solid rock.
Hmmmmmmm. Aspirin could indeed have played a negative role in that pandemic, because an adverse reaction to NSAIDs, typically involves the production of leukotriens, (which, of course, is an inflammatory response) - plus the fact that the production of leukotrienes is usually accompanied by the production of histamine. So in additional to all the miserable respiratory symptoms, that situation can also lead to anaphylaxis.
Polly wrote:(BTW, Tex and I have agreed to disagree on this point - he believes MC is caused by an underactive immune system).
That's not exactly chiseled in stone, since I'm mostly basing my opinion on the observation that we appear to be lacking regulatory T cells, (which would suggest an underactive immune system). If the T cells should only be present to promote healing, than that would cast doubt on the underactive immune system theory. So as John Maynard Keyne once said, "When the facts change, I change my mind." LOL. I reckon the jury is still out on this, also, since the medical community considers MC to be the result of an inflammatory T cell reaction.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Good Morning! Happy Weekend!
Sara,
The excess aspirin theory (leading to death from Reye's syndrome) is interesting. Some researchers believe that it may have contributed to at least a small number of deaths in 1918. I guess there is no way to know for sure. It was an extremely virulent virus, for sure, that prompted immune systems to work to the max. Can you imagine? - 50 million deaths worldwide. The risk of getting Reye's syndrome from taking aspirin for the flu is the reason that pediatricians advise parents NEVER to use aspirin in kids under 18.
Mycobacterium tuberculosis para avis is a clever organism. We had at least one discussion about it previously - hopefully Tex will track it/them down. It is unlike almost any other infectious organism - can change form by eliminating its cell wall, etc., which means that it can escape usual detection methods and is resistant to usual antibiotic treatment. It takes a cocktail of several non-mainstream antibiotics over a very long time to even begin to attack it. It is often found in milk (cattle with Johne's disease), and I think MC has been reported in people who grew up on dairy farms. I know I drank huge amounts of milk as a child.
Interesting question about the "chicken/egg" (what came first?) - did the years of eating gluten sensitize my immune system? I'm not sure. What I am thinking is that I had a genetic predisposition to gluten sensitivity (those hunter-gatherer genes I keep talking about), but the gene/genes were turned off (not expressed) until an environmental whammy switched them "on". In my case, I believe it was from taking the antibiotic doxycycline for 6 weeks for suspected (never proven, sigh) Lyme disease. I was also taking NSAIDs frequently for aches/pains. This wiped out my good colon bacteria, allowing the bad to overgrow, leading to MC. According to Dr. Fine, the gene responsible for MC is the same one that controls gluten sensitivity, so when it switches "on", both MC and gluten sensitivity are the result. I wonder what additional mechanism makes some of us sensitive to so many foods???? It boggles my mind when I read about the sensitivities of us multiples here. There is just so much more to learn about this disease. My hunch is that the colon bacteria play a major role in all of this, but I have no idea how. I think that it may be impossible to ever achieve proper balance again (without avoiding sensitive foods) once the colon bacteria are altered enough by antibiotics, or whatever else alters them. The real key, I think, will be when we learn how to switch genes back "off" again.
Zizzle,
I also react to nickel and other "cheap" metals. Interesting about your continued health despite being exposed to everything the kids bring home. I am the same way - I am often sneezed on, vomited on, coughed on - LOL! But I can't remember the last time I had a URI. Of course, we know that vitamin D is helping with this, too.
Tex,
Great quote form Keyne! Spoken like the true scientist you are!
Love,
Polly
Sara,
The excess aspirin theory (leading to death from Reye's syndrome) is interesting. Some researchers believe that it may have contributed to at least a small number of deaths in 1918. I guess there is no way to know for sure. It was an extremely virulent virus, for sure, that prompted immune systems to work to the max. Can you imagine? - 50 million deaths worldwide. The risk of getting Reye's syndrome from taking aspirin for the flu is the reason that pediatricians advise parents NEVER to use aspirin in kids under 18.
Mycobacterium tuberculosis para avis is a clever organism. We had at least one discussion about it previously - hopefully Tex will track it/them down. It is unlike almost any other infectious organism - can change form by eliminating its cell wall, etc., which means that it can escape usual detection methods and is resistant to usual antibiotic treatment. It takes a cocktail of several non-mainstream antibiotics over a very long time to even begin to attack it. It is often found in milk (cattle with Johne's disease), and I think MC has been reported in people who grew up on dairy farms. I know I drank huge amounts of milk as a child.
Interesting question about the "chicken/egg" (what came first?) - did the years of eating gluten sensitize my immune system? I'm not sure. What I am thinking is that I had a genetic predisposition to gluten sensitivity (those hunter-gatherer genes I keep talking about), but the gene/genes were turned off (not expressed) until an environmental whammy switched them "on". In my case, I believe it was from taking the antibiotic doxycycline for 6 weeks for suspected (never proven, sigh) Lyme disease. I was also taking NSAIDs frequently for aches/pains. This wiped out my good colon bacteria, allowing the bad to overgrow, leading to MC. According to Dr. Fine, the gene responsible for MC is the same one that controls gluten sensitivity, so when it switches "on", both MC and gluten sensitivity are the result. I wonder what additional mechanism makes some of us sensitive to so many foods???? It boggles my mind when I read about the sensitivities of us multiples here. There is just so much more to learn about this disease. My hunch is that the colon bacteria play a major role in all of this, but I have no idea how. I think that it may be impossible to ever achieve proper balance again (without avoiding sensitive foods) once the colon bacteria are altered enough by antibiotics, or whatever else alters them. The real key, I think, will be when we learn how to switch genes back "off" again.
Zizzle,
I also react to nickel and other "cheap" metals. Interesting about your continued health despite being exposed to everything the kids bring home. I am the same way - I am often sneezed on, vomited on, coughed on - LOL! But I can't remember the last time I had a URI. Of course, we know that vitamin D is helping with this, too.
Tex,
Great quote form Keyne! Spoken like the true scientist you are!
Love,
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
Polly,
Here's one of the earlier threads:
http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2791
I've always been fascinated by Dogtor J's insight into our immune systems. For those who are not familiar with his innovative way of thinking, Dogtor J, (Dr. John Symes), is a veterinarian in Great Britain. The thread at the following link contains some very insightful observations by him, concerning MAP, and viruses.
http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3183
And here's the latest extensive thread discussing MAP:
http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10895
Love,
Tex
Here's one of the earlier threads:
http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2791
I've always been fascinated by Dogtor J's insight into our immune systems. For those who are not familiar with his innovative way of thinking, Dogtor J, (Dr. John Symes), is a veterinarian in Great Britain. The thread at the following link contains some very insightful observations by him, concerning MAP, and viruses.
http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3183
And here's the latest extensive thread discussing MAP:
http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10895
Love,
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
-
draperygoddess
- Rockhopper Penguin
- Posts: 558
- Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:49 am
- Location: Tennessee
Cynthia,
See the last post on the first page in the thread at this link:
http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14662
Tex
See the last post on the first page in the thread at this link:
http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14662
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
-
Joefnh
- Rockhopper Penguin
- Posts: 2478
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:25 pm
- Location: Southern New Hampshire
In reviewing my records gong back about 6 years I used to have a WBC count of about 5k for the past roughly 3 years it has been more or less consistently up around 8k which cooresponds to the timeframe when all the symptoms of MC and or Crohns kicked in.
Like you Tex I historically had never gotten the flu shot and very rarely ever got the flu. I think I have only gotten it 3 times in my whole life and rarely get colds. When I do get sick it is a major reaction with a very aggressive immune response, often i would get a fever that would spike to 104 and even went into seizures once and would have joint swelling that was quite visible.
I did often have unexplained GI symptoms which were attributed to a 'stomach flu' which I now know we're most likely the dietary intolerances related to MC.
Thinking about the whole issue of whether MC is an autoimmune reaction, I do wonder as our guts can be permeable a.k.a. 'Leaky Gut' would bacteria from our GI tracts also leak into the the surrounding tissues prompting a immune repsonse? If this is so wouldn't that train the immune system to go after our GI bacteria as defined by our enterotype! resulting in a autoimmune like syndrome?
Joe
Like you Tex I historically had never gotten the flu shot and very rarely ever got the flu. I think I have only gotten it 3 times in my whole life and rarely get colds. When I do get sick it is a major reaction with a very aggressive immune response, often i would get a fever that would spike to 104 and even went into seizures once and would have joint swelling that was quite visible.
I did often have unexplained GI symptoms which were attributed to a 'stomach flu' which I now know we're most likely the dietary intolerances related to MC.
Thinking about the whole issue of whether MC is an autoimmune reaction, I do wonder as our guts can be permeable a.k.a. 'Leaky Gut' would bacteria from our GI tracts also leak into the the surrounding tissues prompting a immune repsonse? If this is so wouldn't that train the immune system to go after our GI bacteria as defined by our enterotype! resulting in a autoimmune like syndrome?
Joe
Joe
Joe,
Well, it can obviously cause antibody reactions. Whether or not it can lead to an autoimmune reaction, is a question that I can't answer.
Tex
Well, it can obviously cause antibody reactions. Whether or not it can lead to an autoimmune reaction, is a question that I can't answer.
http://www.leakygut.co.uk/Liz%20Lipski% ... llness.pdfA healthy intestinal lining allows only properly digested fats, proteins, and starches to pass through so they can be assimilated. At the same time it also provides a barrier to keep out bacterial products, foreign substances, and large undigested molecules. This is called the "barrier function" of the gastrointestinal mucosal lining. This surface is often called the "brush border," because under a microscope its villi and microvilli look like bristles on a brush.
The intestinal lining lets substances move across this barrier in several ways. The process of "diffusion" is a simple one: it equalizes the concentrations inside and outside the cells. Diffusion is the way ions of chloride, magnesium, potassium, sodium, and free fatty acids pass into the cells. Most nutrients are moved through the brush borders via a process called "active transport." Carrier molecules, all of low molecular weight, transport nutrients like molecular taxis. Amino acids, fatty acids, glucose, minerals, and vitamins cross cell membranes through active transport.
In-between cells are junctions called "desmosomes." Normally, desmosomes form tight junctions and do not permit large molecules to pass
through. But when the area is irritated and inflamed, these junctions loosen up, allowing larger molecules to pass through. The substances that pass through the intracellular junctions are seen by our immune system as foreign, stimulating an antibody reaction.
When the intestinal lining is damaged, larger substances of particle size are allowed to pass directly, again triggering an antibody reaction.
When the intestinal lining is damaged even more, substances larger than particle size--disease-causing bacteria, potentially toxic molecules, and
undigested food particles--are allowed to pass directly through the weakened cell membranes. They go directly into the bloodstream, activating antibodies and alarm substances called cytokines. The cytokines alert our lymphocytes (white blood cells) to battle the particles. Oxidants are produced in the battle, causing irritation and inflammation far from the digestive system. That is the basis for a condition called increased intestinal permeability or leaky gut syndrome.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Polly,
I have a small side-question about the hunter-gatherer genes... which I think we all have (well, except for those few among us with space-alien ancestors). Do you believe that some of us have moved markedly farther away from that heritage, and toward being tolerant of grains and an agrarian diet?
(If I'm understanding myself correctly, I don't believe that - I think the variation in gluten reaction is basically a coincidence, not a result of more generations of grain-growing in the heritage.)
I drank giant quantities of milk as a child, too...
L,
S
I have a small side-question about the hunter-gatherer genes... which I think we all have (well, except for those few among us with space-alien ancestors). Do you believe that some of us have moved markedly farther away from that heritage, and toward being tolerant of grains and an agrarian diet?
(If I'm understanding myself correctly, I don't believe that - I think the variation in gluten reaction is basically a coincidence, not a result of more generations of grain-growing in the heritage.)
I drank giant quantities of milk as a child, too...
L,
S
Joe,would bacteria from our GI tracts also leak into the the surrounding tissues prompting a immune repsonse? If this is so wouldn't that train the immune system to go after our GI bacteria as defined by our enterotype! resulting in a autoimmune like syndrome?
You've got me thinking in directions I haven't pondered for a long time. Namely, I'm getting away from the infectious causes of MC and back into the "self" causes. I think it goes without saying that regardless of whatever triggers our MC, it leads to leaky gut, and our food sensitivities multiply from there. Perhaps gluten sensitivity is the one that gets the ball rolling (for some of us) and injures our intestines over time, leading to leaky gut. But for others it could be an infection, antibiotics, NSAIDS, stress, etc.
I realize I'm not saying anything new here. I'm sure many here believe and understand some version of this theory, but at this moment it's sort of mind-blowing to me, since I've always thought there was a non-self bug to battle.
In any event, the idea that our gut bacteria also pass the gut barrier is fascinating to me -- as it would explain the chronic/incurable nature of MC. We are born with a particular mix of bacteria in our intestines, we acquire others and lose some over time, but the core group of bugs we were born with stay with us until the end. If these bacteria, or portions of these bacteria, are presented to our immune system the way food proteins can be, our immune system can mount an attack on them, leading to a lifelong battle between immune system and resident bacteria. Thus a battle between immune system and gut contents - the very definition of MC according to many sources. Changing our foods not only eliminates the reaction to those foods, but can also modulate which bacteria we encourage to grow (based on what we feed them).
The fact that most MC sufferers can get instant relief from an antibiotic like Cipro, is more evidence that this is a immune-system/bacteria battle. Wipe out the bacteria (or the ones which offend the immune system), and the battle can no longer be fought, so symptoms improve.
What's killing me, is that I thought Cipro got rid of the ugly, mean, foreign bacteria we picked up along the way, when in fact, it might be one or many of the bacteria the world considers friendly and beneficial!! It's not necessarily a pathogen...our immune system just decided to turn on one of its friends!!
Of course this is all very depressing, since we know there is no way to wipe out our resident bacteria completely and start over.
I now believe many of us may have advantageous prehistoric genes that keep our immune systems revved up for action. Our gene types survived many plagues and infirmities, which explains why people with our gene types are so common today. They may be gluten-sensitive, but for thousands of years, they were the genes that kept people alive. It was survival of the fittest, but now our "clean" surroundings make this predisposition a liability.
It all seems so clear to me in this moment. Maybe I'm tired. I dunno.
It may also explain why I reacted so violently to taking an innocent, high-potency probiotic. I am probably sensitive to one or more of the "beneficial" bacterial strains in the probiotic! That means more detective work, to find a probiotic with true "friendlies" who can try to outnumber my resident immune system foes.
Ugh, so all this means there is no yet-to-be-discovered magic cure for MC. We will always have some degree of this war within.
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draperygoddess
- Rockhopper Penguin
- Posts: 558
- Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:49 am
- Location: Tennessee
I'm having an a-ha moment about my past bouts of traveler's diarrhea. They seem to have predated my IBS and MC, so I always assumed I might have picked up a new bacteria then, one that would cause all of this. Now I'm thinking the GI bug simply injured the intestinal lining long enough to cause leaky gut. Everything else happened as result of the leaky gut, not some new, unfriendly bacteria. For all I know, my immune system may be intolerant of e-coli, bifidum, or something equally normal in my digestive tract!
WOW, Z! You've got your thinking cap on. I can't disagree with anything you've been thinking about.
I've also reacted violently every time I tried probiotics. They are not for me! And I have come to believe that gut bacterial imbalance is a significant and ongoing problem. There is a way to wipe out our gut bacteria and start over - the fecal microbiota transplantation procedure that has been mentioned in Ginny's current thread. No controlled studies are available yet, but it appears to work amazingly well when used to eliminate chronic C. diff infection. I saw one study where it "cured" 14 out of 16 people who had the procedure. I have great hopes that it might be able to restore the colon bacterial balance in MC patients one of these days.
I also have taken Cipro and noticed how it helps. I guess, like you, that it targets those specific "bad" bacteria in our guts that have overgrown because of other antibiotics (or other factors). I even looked up the main bugs that Cipro kills not too long ago. I know it is possible to get a gut bacteria test (to see what strains are present or absent), but I don't think science has made much progress in interpreting those tests.
And I couldn't agree more with you that our immune systems have ensured that we (with the "best" hunter-gatherer genes) have survived. Sure, we are prone to gluten and other food sensitivities, but at least those are rarely the cause of death, like infections are. There are other examples of this kind genetic advantage. People with sickle cell anemia are more resistant to malaria, for example.
Keep thinking.......it makes me think too!
Love,
Polly
I've also reacted violently every time I tried probiotics. They are not for me! And I have come to believe that gut bacterial imbalance is a significant and ongoing problem. There is a way to wipe out our gut bacteria and start over - the fecal microbiota transplantation procedure that has been mentioned in Ginny's current thread. No controlled studies are available yet, but it appears to work amazingly well when used to eliminate chronic C. diff infection. I saw one study where it "cured" 14 out of 16 people who had the procedure. I have great hopes that it might be able to restore the colon bacterial balance in MC patients one of these days.
I also have taken Cipro and noticed how it helps. I guess, like you, that it targets those specific "bad" bacteria in our guts that have overgrown because of other antibiotics (or other factors). I even looked up the main bugs that Cipro kills not too long ago. I know it is possible to get a gut bacteria test (to see what strains are present or absent), but I don't think science has made much progress in interpreting those tests.
And I couldn't agree more with you that our immune systems have ensured that we (with the "best" hunter-gatherer genes) have survived. Sure, we are prone to gluten and other food sensitivities, but at least those are rarely the cause of death, like infections are. There are other examples of this kind genetic advantage. People with sickle cell anemia are more resistant to malaria, for example.
Keep thinking.......it makes me think too!
Love,
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
Polly,
I gave this information to Ginny, but you might be interested in it, as well. Here's a small case study series which showed 100% success using self- or family-administered fecal transplantation by low volume enema. The second link is actually a home guide, written by Dr. Silverman, for do-it-yourselfers. How about that? Of course, this is all in regard to treating antibiotic-resistant C. diff cases, but I see no reason why it couldn't be used to treat other gut bacteria issues.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20117243
http://crohnsend.com/documents/dr_silve ... plants.pdf
You might be interested in this recent article about Dr. Silverman, as well:
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_an ... riend.html
An interesting quote from the article:
Tex
I gave this information to Ginny, but you might be interested in it, as well. Here's a small case study series which showed 100% success using self- or family-administered fecal transplantation by low volume enema.
The second link is actually a home guide, written by Dr. Silverman, for do-it-yourselfers. How about that? Of course, this is all in regard to treating antibiotic-resistant C. diff cases, but I see no reason why it couldn't be used to treat other gut bacteria issues.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20117243
http://crohnsend.com/documents/dr_silve ... plants.pdf
You might be interested in this recent article about Dr. Silverman, as well:
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_an ... riend.html
An interesting quote from the article:
Love,But the true believers have even bigger plans. They hope fecal transplants might be used to treat other gut-related conditions, such as ulcerative colitis and even obesity. Some very overweight people, for example, are thought to have more of a certain type of bacteria in their intestines, which causes them to extract extra calories from complex carbohydrates. With this in mind, researchers found that fat mice would lose weight if transplanted with feces from thin ones. Later, a team of Dutch researchers tried the same approach in humans: No one lost weight, but the fecal recipients did show a significant improvement in their ability to regulate insulin. (That study is under review and should be published in the next few months.)
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
I'm questioning whether bacteria "imbalance" is the problem, or whether we are simply intolerant to one or two of our normal inhabitants. What fecal transplantation would probably not address, in my new theory, is the possibility that we have been sensitized to one or more of our gut bacteria, in the same way we become sensitized to gluten or dairy proteins. Unless the transplant came from a source that did not have a single one of the suspect bacteria, I think our symptoms of "bacteria rejection" would continue. I can see a role for the gut bacteria test to see what strains inhabit the gut, but the next step would be to challenge our immune system with each individual bacteria, to see which one we react to. Basically a MRT test for a spectrum of individual gut bacteria.Polly wrote: I have come to believe that gut bacterial imbalance is a significant and ongoing problem. There is a way to wipe out our gut bacteria and start over - the fecal microbiota transplantation procedure that has been mentioned in Ginny's current thread. No controlled studies are available yet, but it appears to work amazingly well when used to eliminate chronic C. diff infection. I saw one study where it "cured" 14 out of 16 people who had the procedure. I have great hopes that it might be able to restore the colon bacterial balance in MC patients one of these days.
I also have taken Cipro and noticed how it helps. I guess, like you, that it targets those specific "bad" bacteria in our guts that have overgrown because of other antibiotics (or other factors). I even looked up the main bugs that Cipro kills not too long ago. I know it is possible to get a gut bacteria test (to see what strains are present or absent), but I don't think science has made much progress in interpreting those tests.
Incidentally, earlier in my "IBS" days, my symptoms were also temporarily cured with a 10-day course of Cephalexin. I wonder if that narrows the possible bacterial suspects?